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Jared View Drop Down
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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

this album is the favorite album of Friede and me, for personal reasons. our kids Alice and Dorothy absolutely loved it when they were kids and listened to it again and again and again

It's lovely to read that an album gives you both such warm memories; that's what music should be about, especially when you are young. I might have to give it a listen!  Smile
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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Well Benny the Bouncer is divisive now - never heard it called a masterpiece before, most people don't like it. 

There are plenty of divisive Yes albums if you join the Yes Facebook group - Fly From Here, Open Your Eyes, practically everything in fact.

we like "Benny the Bouncer" and similarly hated tracks like "Jeremy Bender". humor does belong in music

It's funny, I still quite enjoy both BtB and JB; when I play the albums, I never fast forward and have never hated them. You're right, there is most definitely a place for humour in prog, which most of us enjoy and celebrate... is there anyone here who doesn't like 'The Battle Of Epping Forest?' I love it.

I think many of us however will be able to point to at least one 'humorous' track which we find a bit too much and skip past? One for me would certainly be Hawkwind's 'Flying Doctor' which I'll be honest I'd be happy not to have to hear again.... LOL 
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Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

while most people have not heard it, not even heard of it, "Fairy Tales" by Mother Gong is pretty divisive. some (like me) find it to be an absolutely brilliant 5-star album, some hate how Gilli Smyth tells her fairy tales (though they may even like the music)

although 60% of the 51 reviews on PA are for 3 or 4 stars, with only 6% giving it 1 star, suggesting it's not actually that divisive?

6% of 51 is 3 of 51 giving it 1 star. 22% gave it 5 stars. but as I said, what is divisive is mostly the vocals; the instrumentals are usually liked a lot.

this album is the favorite album of Friede and me, for personal reasons. our kids Alice and Dorothy absolutely loved it when they were kids and listened to it again and again and again


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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

while most people have not heard it, not even heard of it, "Fairy Tales" by Mother Gong is pretty divisive. some (like me) find it to be an absolutely brilliant 5-star album, some hate how Gilli Smyth tells her fairy tales (though they may even like the music)

although 60% of the 51 reviews on PA are for 3 or 4 stars, with only 6% giving it 1 star, suggesting it's not actually that divisive?
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while most people have not heard it, not even heard of it, "Fairy Tales" by Mother Gong is pretty divisive. some (like me) find it to be an absolutely brilliant 5-star album, some hate how Gilli Smyth tells her fairy tales (though they may even like the music)


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Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Well Benny the Bouncer is divisive now - never heard it called a masterpiece before, most people don't like it. 

There are plenty of divisive Yes albums if you join the Yes Facebook group - Fly From Here, Open Your Eyes, practically everything in fact.

we like "Benny the Bouncer" and similarly hated tracks like "Jeremy Bender". humor does belong in music


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Anyway, my thanks to you, Lewian, for good bringing of more understanding of the topic by not least your statistical definition.

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Can the divisive albums be roughly split into two classes?

(1) (Like Dream Theaters more controversial albums:) Albums of which a group of people thinks that they are not risk-taking enough, boring, or selling out by trying to please a bigger crowd, and

(2) (Like Trout Mask Replica:) Albums that are hard to access and alienate many while enthusing some?

The reasons for your (2) seem to me quite obvious, while concerning (1), they may be rather complex.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

I imagine King Crimson - Discipline was fairly divisive when released, new line-up, radical new sound, "why do they sound like Talking Heads?"

I remember a long time ago (the summer of 1995 to be exact) when I worked in a warehouse there was a guy I worked with who said the same thing. He thought those 80s albums sounded too much like the Talking Heads.

And I can imagine, Discipline is still not the best cup of tea for not so few of those most into classic Prog, including myself. Big smile 


Edited by David_D - May 10 2023 at 13:21
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Got to imagine Thrak got a bit of a reaction too.

But by a diminishing number of hardened devotees who had already worked out that KC were never going to release an album devoid of controversy... Ermm
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Got to imagine Thrak got a bit of a reaction too.
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Jared View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

I imagine King Crimson - Discipline was fairly divisive when released, new line-up, radical new sound, "why do they sound like Talking Heads?"

Very much so. Although could you say the same about Lark's Tongues too? If so, I might venture to suggest that the latter might have proved more divisive because in '73, they were still a more mainstream band with a sizeable fan base?

It would also be interesting to consider which albums which proved divisive when released are still considered so now, as opposed to those which now appear to be fairly tame and we wonder what the fuss was about? 
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

I imagine King Crimson - Discipline was fairly divisive when released, new line-up, radical new sound, "why do they sound like Talking Heads?"

I remember a long time ago (the summer of 1995 to be exact) when I worked in a warehouse there was a guy I worked with who said the same thing. He thought those 80s albums sounded too much like the Talking Heads. People (including the guy I worked with) say that like it's a bad thing. Oh well. Another guy at that same place recommended Allan Holdsworth, Tribel Tech and John Zorn (who I never did check out but apparently he's divisive too). 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - May 10 2023 at 11:46
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

.... requiring 20% five stars may be seen as too much, and one can ask, why require more 5 stars than 1/2? 

In this case, I think, you're quite right that for different reasons, there's bigger tendency to give 5 stars than 1-2, so 20% of 5 stars can be said to be equal to 10% of 1-2 stars, and I think too, we need a larger percentage of ratings to allow us to talk about being "divisive".



Edited by David_D - May 10 2023 at 12:39
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I imagine King Crimson - Discipline was fairly divisive when released, new line-up, radical new sound, "why do they sound like Talking Heads?"
Ian

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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Can the divisive albums be roughly split into two classes?

(1) (Like Dream Theaters more controversial albums:) Albums of which a group of people thinks that they are not risk-taking enough, boring, or selling out by trying to please a bigger crowd, and

(2) (Like Trout Mask Replica:) Albums that are hard to access and alienate many while enthusing some?


Sure.  There's more than one way to skin a cat.   For example: Albums such as Opeth's Heritage suggest that some albums are divisive when they're released.  Not so much...a decade down the road. 
 Others, remain divisive years later...such as Yes West era albums and Genesis Abacab. Time tarnishes, casting it's rusty patina. 


Edited by omphaloskepsis - May 10 2023 at 10:29
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Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

However we are looking at it from a contemporary viewpoint.

Exactly, that's what we're doing here, and not historically. Wink
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

The good thing about the numbers is that they can dispel some myths that some may believe, such as that Topographic Oceans is much hated even among prog fans.

Another, or the same, thing is that numbers are "facts" which give good, inter-subjective basis for some more qualified discussions - comparing to single person's opinions which validity can be difficult to estimate.


Edited by David_D - May 10 2023 at 09:55
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:


(2) Maybe others are better placed to discuss the extent to which Captain Beefheart polarised? Were they mainstream enough at the time to have done so?   

Well, here the numbers come in again. The album has 20% 1 or 2 stars. Note sure whether you can find any other album here that has so many while also having 40% 5 stars (assuming a not very low number of ratings) at 380 ratings with 80 (!!) reviews. If that one is not polarising, I don't know what is.

I accept all that.  Clap   However we are looking at it from a contemporary viewpoint.

I suppose my question was based on how divisive the album was considered at the time, in the context of other releases within the late 60's Avant scene? Being polarising with the benefit of hindsight isn't necessarily the same thing...
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Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:


(2) Maybe others are better placed to discuss the extent to which Captain Beefheart polarised? Were they mainstream enough at the time to have done so?   

Well, here the numbers come in again. The album has 20% 1 or 2 stars. Note sure whether you can find any other album here that has so many while also having 40% 5 stars (assuming a not very low number of ratings) at 380 ratings with 80 (!!) reviews. If that one is not polarising, I don't know what is.


Edited by Lewian - May 10 2023 at 07:52
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Can the divisive albums be roughly split into two classes?

(1) (Like Dream Theaters more controversial albums:) Albums of which a group of people thinks that they are not risk-taking enough, boring, or selling out by trying to please a bigger crowd, and

(2) (Like Trout Mask Replica:) Albums that are hard to access and alienate many while enthusing some?

Respectfully, I'm not entirely sold on either of these examples...

(1) Albums by established bands which are 'not risk taking enough' are rarely divisive, because they don't cause two entrenched viewpoints; they may merely find about 10% of their active fanbase erode away. DT: 13 for instance, very much fitted that criteria, but didn't polarise anyone. The Astonishing however did polarise, because it attempted to go in a different direction and break the mold. Brave it was, but I'm not sure how successful.

(2) Maybe others are better placed to discuss the extent to which Captain Beefheart polarised? Were they mainstream enough at the time to have done so?   
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