Anyone a fan of rap

Just this before I give up; do you honestly believe that an album or single that doesn't make it into the charts could possibly sell "a couple of million" copies, or are you exaggerating wildly for effect?

In the US, you need sales of a half a milion to reach gold record status, in the UK 300 000 is platinum. But I guess you think that gold and platinum record awards are being handed out left and right to artists who never make it into the charts.

And since you obviously don't read what I actually write (if you did, you would know that Jean Grae and Cheech Marina are one and the same), I'll just drop it, except to repeat this; biggest threat to music: complacency and narrow-mindedness. You've got at least one of those in spades.

Ivan, I only edited to make it a bit briefer, and maybe to spare you an embarrasment or two, but I see now that that is certainly pointless. As for the centrality, I will avoid quoting anything this time, so you won't feel hard done by.

So, you're simultaneously arguing that there's A) loads of awful rap infesting the music biz, and B) but that it's so bad it doesn't reach the charts. Seems the music industry is shooting themselves in the foot, then, putting out all this stuff that doesn't sell. Also, who gives a toss what's in the US charts? They've been a worse quagmire of total crappitude than the UK charts for decades - at least in the UK, something interesting and qualitative (and even lower-p progressive) does rear its head from time to time.

And, oh dear,  Primal Scream is not a House band, never have been - they incorporated some dance elements on one album ten years ago, or something. Country Girl is a Rawk n Roll tune if ever there was one, as all their releases in the last decade have been. Like The Rolling Stones with a lobotomy (yeah, that bad).

It goes back to the same argument I'm making with Iron Man; how easy it is to play basic Rock n Roll, okay? (and more specifially in the case of Country Girl, how incredibly easy it must have been to write). Judge for yourself. That's where your sudden dragging in of Reggaeton is absolutely baffling.

I have mentioned several good rappers, earlier in this thread. And you won't try rapping because...? If it's so bloomin' easy - and I'm not even asking you to create anything, just replicate what is already there - it really should be a breeze. Right? Are ye scared, lad?

And I have to say that "that is not musically correct" is a hilarious comeback. There are plenty of non-tonal, non-harmonic purely percussive forms of music from Japanese taiko drumming to the drums of Burundi (the latter is such a cultural force in Burundi they have a drum on their flag) and absolutely tons where rhythm is the major element.

Any program from the USA or sitcom? Let me see...I watch Lost, Arrested Development (RIP), Scrubs, The Office, Rome, Law & Order, Law & Order: CI, CSI, Battlestar Galactica and Thief. There might have been some Rap in the background of the last one, but not a note of it in any of the others. Care to try again, Mr Generalize Without Proof?

My point is that you're tilting at the wrong windmill. Complacency and narrow-mindedness are the two major threats music faces, not whether someone sings or not, or if the emphasis is on rhythm over melody. Yes, I too prefer Yes and Genesis to...well any rapper, even the bestest ones in the whole world - but that doesn't mean that I cannot appreciate the considerable accomplishments of someone like Jean Grae who does five different rap styles as a one-woman possee in The Herbaliser's single Generals. (Note that the styles are pastiche, but all rhythmically more intricate than a Wakeman Moog solo - the second one, "Cheech Marina", is my favorite) You may not like it, but you're just being silly if you cannot acknowledge that a great measure of skill has gone into devising, creating and performing in five distinct styles and voices in one song.

Teaflax wrote: Which BTW is a stupis stereotype because you will find more ballalaika players than fiddlers). Well, gee, why do you think I chose it as a counter to YOUR stupid stereotype? That was exactly my point, you can't use stupid sterotypes, but if you use them let them at least be related o the country. And at least as many new Rock bands or any other kind of act they're looking for. WHat is your point, exactly? Again, that's my point Record Industry invest more in rap musicians, it's cheaper and you have thousands of them, they don't search for good Rock bands anymore. And some would say melody and harmonies without groove mean nothing at all. The point is still not about your presonal preference, but whether or not this is something anyone can do, and you have no case for that, I fear. That's not musically correct, there is a lot of music, classical and popular without groove, but very few expressions without melody. And what on EARTH does that have to do with how easy it is to play Iron Man, or many other highly respected Rock tunes? Because this mediocre pseudo musicians sing the same tracks as famous rap artists at least with the same terrible quality IMO. I don't know what it is you've heard, but a good rap pushes, pulles and changes phrasing, emphasis and rhyme scheme throughout. I defy you to rap along to something as mainstream as The Real Slim Shady (as we've mentioned it before, and you should eb able to find it easily) even with a lyric sheet in front of and three runthroughs. First don't dare me to rap anything, because I'm not a rapper, never tried and never will. And again thoise mysterious good rappers everybody talks about but nobody mentions. What do you base this on? Which thousands of rappers? Against which few bands? Even if you were to find more rappers than Rock bands in the charts at any one time, that only tells you the genre is more popular. Just check any TV program from USA by cable, any sit comedy, anyy musical program, even MTV and you'll see all are gull of mnediocre rappers. Here is the UK singles chart for this week: 1That's two Rap tunes, four Pop vocalists, two Rock bands and two Dance tunes, both with non sampled singing.  It seems those thusands of rappers haven't had much impact on the chart this week, eh? Maybe it's a June slump, or something. The following ten spots hold only two more rappers, one of which is a guest on an RnB tune, and three proper bands, one singer/songwriter and a classic crooner (the smooth Tony Christie). In the following twenty songs, there are no more than four rappers and eight or so "proper" bands. All interspersed with some novelty tunes, trashy Techno, etc. I'm not talking about UK, where Rap is not remotely as popular as USA, There may be thousands of rappers that sell enough to feed the musical industry,  but not necessarilly will reach the charts. This even makes my point stronger, they are so bad that this thousand of Rap musicians don't even reach the mediocre Pop 40 tracks despite they will kill for this. Oh, and as for complexity, if  Primal Scream's Country Girl took more than three minutes to write they're either daft or lazy. It's not even a song - it's like a sketch for a basic idea for a song. I'd much rather hear someone with skill perform something he does well than listen to that dross. Why should I care for an alternative House Dance band? I rather listen ELP, Yes. Genesis that listen that kind of music...So....What's your point using this poor example? It's funny, when I quote you I use all your post, you avoid cenral parts of mine, good strategy. Iván

Teaflax wrote: kenmeyerjr wrote: Oh, and Tea, there is nothing fake about Springsteen's working man image...obviously, he is not living on welfare, but I think he has earned both is salary and his status. And, considering how much he donates of both is money and time to things like food banks and such, I think the time has come for people to stop dumping on him just because he is successful. I don't dump on him because he is succesful, I dump on him because A) he sucks, B) his style is an image just as much a Mötley Crüe's eyeliner, scarves and teased hair were, C) he sucks and D) he's part of the "honesty and feeling are the only things that matter in art" movement that has been dragging music down for so many years. Also, because he sucks.

Teaflax wrote: Oh, lord... Yeah, there's a rapper on every street corner in the USA, and there's a flamenco guitarist on every block in Madrid and a fiddler on every roof in Krakow. Are you for real?   Maybe you don't know what pleonasm means? Well using terms as in any corner or everywhere are forms of pleonasm, literarian figures to say there are a lot.   But just check any label's rappers rooster, easily you can find at least 100 per label that released an album, you can go to any club and find a lot of rappers.   Even here in Perú, if you don't have cable you're condemned to see 20 or 30 new rappers each week making the samme crap and they all sound pretty much the same.   But you can't find hundreed of Flamenco musicians with albums and much less fiddlers in Krakov (Which BTW is a stupis stereotype because you will find more ballalaika players than fiddlers). It's at least as hard to find a good rapper as it is to find a good Rock band. And rapping is not "to speak fast" - if it were, then you could do it now, and I promise you that even if you spent a week with a coach practicing, you wouldn't stand at chance at making the cut, and you certainly couldn't come up with the goods in a freestyle rap battle, where you have to improvise your lyrics as you go.   Well, record industry manages very well to find 10 or 20 rappers per week. I've heard two different aspiring rappers try to do Eminem's The Real Slim Shady, and even though they'd both rehearsed it meticulously, they were so obviously off - even though they knew it all by heart. Groove is hard, ask any professional musician, and they'll agree.   Grove without melody and well developed harmonies means nothing at all. Conversely, I heard some kids play Iron Man outside my window last Saturday (don't ask), and they wer godawful, but they got that song down. I like that song a lot, but it is NOT hard to play.   Well I listen at least 20 new reggaeton artists (Variation inspired in reggae and rap) and all suck, but they can play as bnad as any average rapper. Seriously, you are free to feel that in order for you to enjoy music, it needs to have melody. There is nothing at all wrong with that - it's definitely one of my main criteria in most music I listen to - just not all. This is why Blues bores me, it is entirely predictable, because it has very strict conventions and the melodies seem entirely incdental rather than worked out and polished to be just right.   And you don't believe Rap is predictable?????? Endless repetition of one or two chords with a guy SPEAKING FAST ad nauseam?? I find that much more predictable. Anyways, you're free to feel Rap sucks (just like I freely think that Springsteen and Live suck), but it's silly to think it's any easier than it is to play yer average everyday Pop/Rock.   If there are thousands of rappers that manage to release an album and sell a lot, and only a bunch of Rock bands that achieve the same success, I must assume that's easier. Iván

Visitor13 wrote:   So did Homer Simpson.

1. To talk about astrophysics you need to study a lot of years, to talk about music you only need taste and sensibility. I have the luck to know 23 out of 25 departments of Perú (A bit more than 33% of USA size) and seen native peruvians with no studies playing not guitars (too expensive) but the national charango made by them, not flute,. but the modest pentaphonic quena, plus an ibncredible variety of instruments. This guys make beautiful melodies that are played by the best orchestras in the world, they don't hae studies, but thay can talk about music with anybody and are 1,000% more inventive and original than rapers.
2. Most people here can debate with any musician you want, maybe most are not too technicall, but they know what they listen.

Just to end, i rather have enough confidence and trust in my beliefs that base my absolutely unique taste in what another person say.

Iván

^Oh, yeah. Real controversial. You and 50 million other people feel this way.

It's absolutely fine not to like it (especially if you've only been exposed to the mainstream aspects of it), but to think that it's easier to do well than, say, play in a regular Pop/Rock band trying to sound like U2 is just deluded.

Also, "Dance" is a pretty sweeping statement, especially if you include IDM. The difference bwteen a House act and someone like Squarepusher (or even less heavily "musical" acts like Orbital or The Propellerheads) is as great as between Backstreet Boys and Genesis circa 1976.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Not only because they don't play instruments or have knowledge, but mostly because the music they play mostly lacks of elements of the music such as melody

Let's see:

A) The voice is an instrument.
B) Melody is not the be-all and end-all of music. If it were, the mostly identical - and, mind you, very easy to write - melodies of most Blues (and much Rock) would disqualify it from any serious discussion.
C) Timing is a much more rare and difficult to achieve commodity than the ability to play scales.
D) Whether you play an instrument or not isn't an indicator of the relative complexity of what you are doing. Playing a twelve bar Blues or regular Pop/Rock bass line is much, much easier than being a truly good rapper.
E) Sometimes the groove is the thing (or "thang"). The difference between a Minneapolis groove, a Washington DC Go-Go groove and Clyde Stubblefield (that's James Brown's drummer - the most sampled man in the world) groove is subtle, and extremely difficult to differentiate between when playing. I have a friend who spent years learning how to drum, spent hours practicing, and even attended PIT in Los Angeles. He could probably play with most of the Prog bands I've heard, except for the very upper echelon of complexity - the guy is mad skilled. But he quit playing when he realised that he could never make it into Prince's band - he could not accurately find the groove.
F) All art that is unique and/or difficult to emulate is valid. If anyone can do it, it's pointless. Not just anyone can rap on the level of Eminem - hell, few untrained people could rap like 50 Cent, and he sucks.

Visitor13 wrote: Some people refuse rappers the status of real musicians on the grounds that they neither play an instrument, nor have musical knowledge.   Not only because they don't play instruments or have knowledge, but mostly because the music they play mostly lacks of elements of the music such as melody.   Funnily enough though, when the same people are confronted with basic facts that some very high-profile musicians think otherwise (and even go as far as to co-operate with the rappers they consider creative), these people are quick to dismiss the aforementioned musicians' knowledge, experience and judgement, and claim their own (fragmentary and limited) knowledge as equal, or even superior, to that of these musicians. A good (if maybe a bit extreme) example of a similar situation would be that 'Simpsons' episode, in which Homer vehemently argues astrophysics with Stephen Hawking. Ridiculous, really.   Do you know if we have musical knowledge? Do you know how many years we have studied music? Knowing music is not the same as being successfull, because in that case low profile musicians as Barclay James Harvest or Strawbs not so successful would be ignorants.   BTW: Talking about astriphisics is not the same as talking about music. Astrophysics is a very complex science that requires detailled and specialized studies. Music is an art that of course requires studies but any person has enough feeling and understanding to knos if something is good or not.   Can you spell 'hypocrite'?   We're all entitled our likes and dislikes - but ultimately there are people more qualified to judge art than your everyday person is.    Most of the people here are not "everyday persons" we know about music we study structires, influences, sounds and some of us even music.   Michael Jackson is successful but he has proved he knows a sh!t about music.   And following up on this - to the rap haters here: Steve Coleman, Matthew Shipp and Anthony Braxton say you don't know sh*t. And I'm sure they're not the only accomplished artists to say that.   That's the difference between you and some us, you trust blindly in what other persons say, we have enough confidence to trust in what we believe.    Iván

Jimbo has it right about "Fiddy" and MTV rap. I can understand that people sl*g off the genre if that's all they've heard.

Yes, I forgot The Pharcyde on my list. Their debut is a stone-cold classic of the genre, and has a stylistic breadth that you don't really notice at first. Ace stuff.