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Divisive Prog Albums
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Points: 15662 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2023 at 07:36
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. Rating any album 3 or 4 stars is pretty normal, so a "divisive" album should have many 5 and 2 or 1 while having a good number of ratings. Looking at typical percentages I'd say that a divisive album should at least have 20% 5 star ratings and at least 10% 2 or 1 star (people come here for the music they like, so there's more going on at the upper end; an album with less than 20% 5 star just isn't very appreciated).

A small thing but anyway, I'd call your angle for "statistical"; and after having thinking some more about it, I find your definition quite appropriate and practical.


Thanks. Anyway, the problem I have with my own "definition" is just that I'm well aware that some aspects of being "divisive" cannot be captured well by the numbers only. There may be a small but noisy and otherwise well respected group of people who don't like an album that is mostly in high esteem. This group can even be sizeable at less than 10% in case the number of ratings is high anyway such as for Topographic Oceans (potentially backed up by many people who hate it but don't rate on PA). It's one thing to ask what percentage rates it 1 or 2 but quite another how much and controversially discussed it is. On the other hand, requiring 20% five stars may be seen as too much, and one can ask, why require more 5 stars than 1/2? There may be some vocal and influential lovers of the album even if fewer than 20%. Also of course there could be many 4 star voters who really like an album, even with a large number of 1 or 2 stars.

So just because Final Cut or Topographic Oceans don't match my definition, it's still fine to call them divisive as far as I'm concerned. I just don't think such issues can be removed by another purely quantitative definition (because of, among other things, the peculiarities of rating such as having loads of 4 star ratings around, much fewer 2 stars and  hardly any 1 star). At the end of the day it comes down to taste and taste is subjective and doesn't work by numbers.

The good thing about the numbers is that they can dispel some myths that some may believe, such as that Topographic Oceans is much hated even among prog fans.


Edited by Lewian - May 10 2023 at 07:42
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Can the divisive albums be roughly split into two classes?

(1) (Like Dream Theaters more controversial albums:) Albums of which a group of people thinks that they are not risk-taking enough, boring, or selling out by trying to please a bigger crowd, and

(2) (Like Trout Mask Replica:) Albums that are hard to access and alienate many while enthusing some?

Not that I've been looking much at the whole question, but I can at least have the impression of an existence of these, roughly speaking, two classes.


Edited by David_D - May 10 2023 at 08:00
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. Rating any album 3 or 4 stars is pretty normal, so a "divisive" album should have many 5 and 2 or 1 while having a good number of ratings. Looking at typical percentages I'd say that a divisive album should at least have 20% 5 star ratings and at least 10% 2 or 1 star (people come here for the music they like, so there's more going on at the upper end; an album with less than 20% 5 star just isn't very appreciated).

A small thing but anyway, I'd call your angle for "statistical"; and after having thinking some more about it, I find your definition quite appropriate and practical.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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I find (2) less about being divisive more about targeting a niche audience and not caring what general population thinks about it. To use a marketing term they are not about 'reach'.
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Can the divisive albums be roughly split into two classes?

(1) (Like Dream Theaters more controversial albums:) Albums of which a group of people thinks that they are not risk-taking enough, boring, or selling out by trying to please a bigger crowd, and

(2) (Like Trout Mask Replica:) Albums that are hard to access and alienate many while enthusing some?
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Frets N Worries View Drop Down
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Thank You! Yes, I decided if I'm going ro run with the prog-rock thing, I should find more people that know prog WAY more than I do, and this forum has been a great resource. There are some albums i'll make a point to go back to, I didn't really like 'The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway' OR 'Selling England By The Pound' at first, so I haven't listened to them since. I'll make sure to check those out again. I highly expect tastes to change, so i'm trying not get worn out on my favorites, but it's nice because the Prog Rock rabbit hole goes waaaay deeper than most people think!

I too, am excited
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Tales From Topographic Oceans is obviously the big one. This one recently clicked with me, and it's weird to me that so many prog-fans think this one is weaker than the other albums from Yes' golden era.

I've heard a lot of negative opinions about King Crimson's Lizard, especially towards Gordon Haskell's vocals. Also about how, musically, the title track doesn't really go anywhere and the rest of the tracks don't really have anything on the level of their first two albums. Here on PA it's highly rated, on the other hand. I think it's definitely a weaker KC album, and Haskell does indeed kind of suck at times, but it's still pretty good.

The Final Cut also counts as divisive for sure.

For a non-prog example that's on PA anyway, Metallica's black album is highly popular, but is often seen by fans of their older work as their first misstep, and a sell-out album. And it is a sell-out album, despite the band members insisting that it isn't. I guess you could say the same about 90125 or Genesis' 80's/90's output.
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

I think it's more the case that most people rate and review albums they like as opposed to albums they don't.

Btw, the reason for the obvious difference in rating between PA and RYM can be a higher percentage of like-rating (as opposed to dislike-rating) on PA than RYM.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

I think it's more the case that most people rate and review albums they like as opposed to albums they don't.

To see how valid this statement is, would require a thorough statistical analysis of a large/very large number of ratings, which I've never done, so I don't really know what to think about it. But it seems probable to me, and the more it's the case, the more important and saying is the number of ratings for an album than their average.


Edited by David_D - May 10 2023 at 06:03
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Pain of Salvation - Road Salt 1 & 2. Retro 70's sound with a recording quality that many found to be low fidelity. I personally found it delightgukl raw.

Opeth - Heritage. No metal at all, retro 70's. I really enjoyed.

Banco del Mutuo Socorsso - ...di Terra. Orchestral/rock/instrumental album without Francesco's trademark vocals.

Supersister - Iskander. Gets a lot of grief for not being humorous enough.




      

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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Gentle Giant's "The Missing Piece" comes to mind. Personally, I think it's a great album.


And Interview which i think is a friggin masterpiece.
The Missing Piece is largely seen as ok, but a step down compared to all it's predessecors. Very few would consider it among Gentle Giant's best. A very middle of the road album and a typical three star album for most. I personally think of Interview as underrated, but it's hardly hated or even strongly disliked by... anyone?
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Originally posted by Frets N Worries Frets N Worries wrote:

I tend to like more divisive albums, for whatever reason, and I'm relatively new to prog, (I listened to DSOTM less than a year ago) so I'm interested in hearing more, besides, it gets discussion going, and I can listen in on ones people talk about, and check the band out, in my ever growing spotify playlist of 'Songs I want to Listen to Later' Most of which are ridiculously long epics
I am so excited for your journey! I remember when I was first exploring prog and some albums just didn't speak to me upon the first one or two listens. But I would come back a while later, maybe even over a year, and I thought "what was I thinking!?" They were amazing. And still others I warmed up to more gradually, first few times not enjoying any of it, the next few times enjoying just some of it, then eventually liking all or almost all of the album. Given even more time, I'm sure I'll change my mind on hundreds of albums. Who knows how things will unfold for you? Everyone is different! One thing is for sure though: your tastes will change in time, at least to some degree. And that goes for music in general, not just prog. It may be drastic over time, it may be more subtle. But expect for things to change in some way. I know they'll change for me at some point too.
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richardh View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

I quite like DT's The Astonishing, undoubtedly a divisive album.

22% 5 stars
32% 1 or 2 star

Certainly divisive.

DT in general seem divisive. Many fans yet a lot of haters as well. Then they produce an album that divides even their own fan base Smile
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Gentle Giant's "The Missing Piece" comes to mind. Personally, I think it's a great album.


And Interview which i think is a friggin masterpiece.

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Frets N Worries View Drop Down
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I tend to like more divisive albums, for whatever reason, and I'm relatively new to prog, (I listened to DSOTM less than a year ago) so I'm interested in hearing more, besides, it gets discussion going, and I can listen in on ones people talk about, and check the band out, in my ever growing spotify playlist of 'Songs I want to Listen to Later' Most of which are ridiculously long epics
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Tales From Topographic Oceans is the most obvious one imo. Maybe also stuff like the Flower Kings, Transatlantic, Marillion and neo-prog in general. On the other side of the fence we have Magma, Univers Zero and VDGG. Maybe Henry Cow too and RIO in general.

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - May 09 2023 at 14:02
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Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

In Spain we say that tastes are like a****les, everybody has his own.

AmenClap

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verslibre View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Jacob Schoolcraft Jacob Schoolcraft wrote:

Univers Zero The Hard Quest is an album that fans are generally not fond of. There is speculation developed over the years as such that the band were not active for a stretch of time and that alone being attributed to the lame album.

Additionally several fans complained about the music not being as complex . They weren't concerned about theories...they were letdown by its content. The predecessor was Heatwave which contained more of a muscular...gymnastic style of playing.

I believe that The Hard Quest is an interesting album. Whenever I feel like hearing a different side to Univers Zero I play it. Aside from that ..the album has a different kind of flow. It is dark and atmospheric in certain ways and listening to The Hard Quest in its entirety leaves an impression on me and so I don't personally don't find it to be a bad album...a lame release.

I also acknowledge Daniel Denis as a composer and it's typical for a composer to be driven by a specific sound and further proceed in writing music which is inspired..however differs from the rest of their catalog. Maybe it's the way he wanted to write during that time and consequently little to do with the group disbanding for years and returning with a dud. Who knows?

I need to put this on. I didn't realize it was so despised.
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Gerinski View Drop Down
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In Spain we say that tastes are like a****les, everybody has his own.
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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Gentle Giant's "The Missing Piece" comes to mind. Personally, I think it's a great album.
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