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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 20701 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:17
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Mike, You said "They were most progressive in their early years when they weren't a metal band." 
 
Does that comment suggest that they should be in a non-Metal prog rock category?  As in the first couple of albums might be prog rock instead of prog metal.


I think that *if* they get added then it would be a non-metal category - but I also said that in my own opinion even the early albums aren't progressive enough to merit such an inclusion, *maybe* in prog related. But I'm not an expert on early Judas Priest, I only listened to Rocka Rolla briefly and Sad Wings of Destiny twice.
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Points: 66093 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:16
Originally posted by laplace laplace wrote:

I've always thought of Iron Maiden and Judas Priest as the metal blueprint. It's interesting to hear someone say that they're progressive because it makes me wonder what metal *wouldn't* be progressive when so many subsequent bands are based on their style... o:)
 
Laplace, Taking their discographies as a whole I agree with you that Iron Maiden and Judas Priest are the blueprints for metal.  However, neither band was suggested based on their entire discographies.  They have both been suggested based on very specific albums within their careers that have progressive elements or could even be considered full-fledged prog albums.  Site guidelines state that if a band has at least 1 prog album then they should be included. 
 
I seriously don't want to go here because I would like to keep this discussion friendly, but we have all heard the same Genesis argument.  Genesis is the blueprint for Adult Contemporary Pop.  Should they be excluded from the Archives because of that?  And please, I am absolutely not suggesting Genesis shouldn't be in PA, because obviously they are one of the founding bands of prog, and belong here. 
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micky View Drop Down
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Points: 46828 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:13
no unfortunately there is not.... anyone who has heard Turbo  would scoff... but the problem is when people who have incomplete knowledge of the group decide to muddy the waters and make having a real discussion on the merits of the band itself difficult.  They find it easier to toss out labels and ridiculous comparisons. 

Edited by micky - March 15 2008 at 12:13
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Points: 24392 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:06
This is exactly the reason why I posted what I did earlier on... There is not enough open-mindedness around this site to consider EACH band on their own merits, and this leads to friction and unpleasant remarks galore.

The sad truth is, no one trusts other members to know enough about music to suggest a band  or artist on account of their prog quotient, and not just because they like them. No one believes that Judas Priest  have been suggested after someone has actually LISTENED to their albums, knowing full well that they have NOTHING to do with AC/DC, Def Leppard or Kiss (to name but three). No one stops to consider that Journey, though well known for their AOR career, released three fully prog albums prior to that, unlike Toto, Survivor or Foreigner. They may be seen as part of the same movement, but they are NOT the same band.

In my very humble opinion, stating  that some suggest controversial bands for addition just because they like them is very offensive to the people involved, because it implies that they don't know a thing about music, and are just pursuing their own agenda.

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Points: 7606 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:05
I've always thought of Iron Maiden and Judas Priest as the metal blueprint. It's interesting to hear someone say that they're progressive because it makes me wonder what metal *wouldn't* be progressive when so many subsequent bands are based on their style... o:)
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micky View Drop Down
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Points: 46828 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:04
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Mike, You said "They were most progressive in their early years when they weren't a metal band." 
 
Does that comment suggest that they should be in a non-Metal prog rock category?  As in the first couple of albums might be prog rock instead of prog metal.


interesting...  pulling out the albums...  if not metal.. then it comes my way...LOL
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Points: 66093 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:57
Mike, You said "They were most progressive in their early years when they weren't a metal band." 
 
Does that comment suggest that they should be in a non-Metal prog rock category?  As in the first couple of albums might be prog rock instead of prog metal.
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Points: 66093 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:47
Originally posted by Abstrakt Abstrakt wrote:

If we keep this up, we'll soon have AC/DC and Def Lepard here aswell!
 
Both good bands, but neither of them released 1 album that could possibly be considered prog.  If you have read the other posts in the thread, there is at least argument that Judas Priest have released potentially 2 to 3 1/2 prog albums.
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Points: 46828 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:47
^ my point exactly.... I'd suggest listening to the damn albums.. and if you still think they sound like AC/DC or Def Leppard... well....  hahahhahah.. .
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Points: 18292 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:44
If we keep this up, we'll soon have AC/DC and Def Lepard here aswell!
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Points: 46828 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:42
Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

If this happens (and it will), David Bowie will... no, he'll probably just stay right where he is, swimming on lots of money...


that isn't exactly constructive ..and has been the problem with trying to discuss bands like this.  Those kind of statements.

First off.. for reasons already stated...  Judas Priest has a slight chance of being here and has nothing to do whatsoever with Bowie.
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Points: 4318 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:35
If this happens (and it will), David Bowie will... no, he'll probably just stay right where he is, swimming on lots of money...
ĦBeware of the Bee!
   
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Points: 20701 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:31
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Probably no surprise to any one, but I have no objection to Metallica or Iron Maiden either for the same reasons as I would like Judas Priest here.  Of course, I have no idea what the specifics are that distinguish a metal band from a prog metal band.

I sympathize with your opinion about Judas Priest - but as you said yourself in your comment about Rocka Rolla: They were most progressive in their early years when they weren't a metal band. By the time the NWoBHM started they were much less progressive. So the specific reason why they don't fit in PM is that during their metal phase they were simply not progressive enough.

I am sure that there are certain elements that the collabs are looking for that are beyond my realm of knowledge.  If the Prog Metal team rejects them, then my next step would be to ask the admins to include them in PR.  If they vote against including them then so be it.  I love Judas Priest and I would love to be able to review their albums on PA.  In case anyone is interested I have done some mini-reviews on Mike's website.

Your mini reviews are all available through the link I posted above ... together with a progressiveness chart of their discography.Smile
 
And although I perceive progressiveness in some to most of their albums, I accept that they are a heavy metal band after Sin After Sin and not a progressive band.  But I feel that at least an argument can be made that their first two and possibly three albums (and as mentioned later some of Painkiller) are progressive.  Site guidelines say that if a band has 1 prog album then they should be included.  I know that this guideline upsets some members, but that is not my rule, that is the site owners' rule.

Still, it remains to be seen how progressive their early albums really are ... in my opinion they're prog related, in your opinion they're prog, and from the many discussion about them I recall some people share my opinion, some share yours. Let's see!
 
And since this is the song currently playing, as much as I would like to see the Priest here, I suspect that Some Heads Are Gonna Roll, or at least there will be plenty of eye rolls at this suggestion.
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Points: 66093 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:19
Probably no surprise to any one, but I have no objection to Metallica or Iron Maiden either for the same reasons as I would like Judas Priest here.  Of course, I have no idea what the specifics are that distinguish a metal band from a prog metal band.  I am sure that there are certain elements that the collabs are looking for that are beyond my realm of knowledge.  If the Prog Metal team rejects them, then my next step would be to ask the admins to include them in PR.  If they vote against including them then so be it.  I love Judas Priest and I would love to be able to review their albums on PA.  In case anyone is interested I have done some mini-reviews on Mike's website. 
 
And although I perceive progressiveness in some to most of their albums, I accept that they are a heavy metal band after Sin After Sin and not a progressive band.  But I feel that at least an argument can be made that their first two and possibly three albums (and as mentioned later some of Painkiller) are progressive.  Site guidelines say that if a band has 1 prog album then they should be included.  I know that this guideline upsets some members, but that is not my rule, that is the site owners' rule. 
 
And since this is the song currently playing, as much as I would like to see the Priest here, I suspect that Some Heads Are Gonna Roll, or at least there will be plenty of eye rolls at this suggestion.
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Points: 2492 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:15
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Make no mistake, I  LOVE Priest, but I think adding them to PM would be quite a stretch, and that would mean moving Iron Maiden as well (sorry, Mike, I know you don't agree, and I don't want to reopen the controversySmile). Moreover, as others said before me, Metallica should be added way before them, especially because of the influence they had on the likes of Dream Theater.

However, if I have to be perfectly honest, I don't think it's a good idea to add either band. If I could go back in time, I would never add Iron Maiden again, because the backlash was really excessive, and rather unpleasant as well. Let's face it, there is enough hostility about Prog-Metal as it is to force bands like Priest or Metallica down the throats of he more conservative members of the site.

But I think Maiden belongs here. I mean, Powerslave and Somewhere in Time had their inclinations, but Seventh Son and especially the post-reunion albums have been fully prog. In fact I don't know why they're in related when Blind Guardian, who have 1.5-2 full prog albums are under full PM. Priest certainly qualifies for related, though I agree adding them would almost be more trouble than it's worth. But I still say that Maiden and Metallica could go under full PM. Priest has about 3.5 albums of really proggy stuff, but a lot more standard metal fare, so I would shove them into PR just to avoid a bigger backlash.
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:14
^ I think the thread connecting Priest/Metallica to prog metal is on unsolid ground anyway. I can see the likes of Dream Theater being influenced by Metal and Prog and then synthesizing them into what they made. The end result is worthy of being on this site, but the original Metal element isn't. In my mind, Metallica, even disregarding those they influenced, should not be on this site. Long songs with solos and rhythm changes do not a prog (related) album make (or do they....?) Early Metallica was thrash and heavy metal, not much more. And post-Justice Metallica...do we need to even go there?

But this is a discussion for another thread, I guess...
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Points: 24392 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:04
Make no mistake, I  LOVE Priest, but I think adding them to PM would be quite a stretch, and that would mean moving Iron Maiden as well (sorry, Mike, I know you don't agree, and I don't want to reopen the controversySmile). Moreover, as others said before me, Metallica should be added way before them, especially because of the influence they had on the likes of Dream Theater.

However, if I have to be perfectly honest, I don't think it's a good idea to add either band. If I could go back in time, I would never add Iron Maiden again, because the backlash was really excessive, and rather unpleasant as well. Let's face it, there is enough hostility about Prog-Metal as it is to force bands like Priest or Metallica down the throats of he more conservative members of the site.
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Points: 46828 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 10:58
Originally posted by Majestic_Mayhem Majestic_Mayhem wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

or Metallica.....  

that said...  Judas Priest  does belong here.. the place.. .TBD...

TBD???? Trash Bin Department?Confused
I don't think they fit in the prog metal category. Just like others mentioned: Prog Related.


LOL To Be Determined...  PM isn't going to take Judas Priest.. I think we all know that.. if they didn't take Metaliica....  and we know why Metalica isn't here.. so PR is probably a pipe dream as well
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Points: 10063 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 10:38
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

or Metallica.....  

that said...  Judas Priest  does belong here.. the place.. .TBD...

TBD???? Trash Bin Department?Confused
I don't think they fit in the prog metal category. Just like others mentioned: Prog Related.

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Points: 20701 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 10:24
I don't think they fit in Prog Metal ... maybe Prog Related, but that would be for the admins to decide.

BTW: I just added another feature at ratingfreak.com - there are now pages for each artist "as seen by" a particular reviewer. Here's rushfan4's page for Judas Priest:

http://ratingfreak.com/_dbe,artist_info,_auto_5249053.xhtml

The new pages are available on the user profile tab "Favorite Artists" through the "details" links.Smile
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