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rogerthat 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
 Posted: May 01 2012 at 00:32 |
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There is no mystery to it. People only try to be nice to the ones they have to be, like their boss or anybody they do business with. Who cares if you are rude to your fellow commuter? We will simply rationalize it as he has probably been rude to somebody else some other time himself, so big deal. Things get to a point where the means don't really matter while the end(s) become ever more important which puts a lot of pressure on the social system.
But you are speaking of a certain violent class of people who might behave that way. There were horseriding dacoits earlier but they have now disappeared. Doesn't mean everybody back then was just a dacoit. The underworld was very active until about 10 years back in my city and there were routine 'encounters' with the police. Doesn't mean people like us who depended on steady, respectable jobs had anything to do with the underworld or harboured delusions that we could behave like gangsters. But lifestyle and money makes the man arrogant and inconsiderate. You are what you are, not what you wear or eat but these words may well have no meaning left today.
Not really, at least speaking for 'my' reality. The density of traffic has gone up but it moves a little faster than before so the average time taken between two places is more or less what it was before. What has changed is the make-up of cars that people drive and the most imperceptible scratch on an expensive car can still provoke a fit of fury. |
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: October 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 3281 |
Posted: May 01 2012 at 00:22 |
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The problem I have with "people are less polite nowadays because they are just magically becoming terrible for no apparent reason" is that it suggests as though there is some sort of mysterious force that alters people's basic nature over time outside of causality and event.
Remember that back in the days of the Wild West, people were routinely shot for cheating at cards. This is because at the time, many of the traveling gunslingers could not or would not find steady paying jobs, so cards were a serious source of revenue and by cheating at cards you were threatening their livelihood. Nowadays we don't shoot people for cheating at cards so I guess we've become more peaceful. Or is it that circumstances have changed? There's more road rage because there's more traffic.
Edited by Textbook - May 01 2012 at 00:27 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: May 01 2012 at 00:14 |
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I can affirm that just that in my formative years and (ongoing) youth, I have seen a lot of changes. Maybe in a third world country that is still maturing, these changes happen more drastically and can be observed while in advanced nations, it is more gradual. I had never seen road rage in my city until up to the last five years. Since then, seeing drivers come to blows even to the point sometimes of bloodshed, has become a fairly 'normal' sight. True, traffic gets more painful year after year but it's not as if it was all smooth sailing earlier. People were more tolerant and patient before, now they are overaggressive and short tempered or at least have more capacity to be. It's there in the trains too, in the neighbourhood. In a bizarre incident, a housewife called up the police and got a few kids in the neighbourhood sent to jail for the crime of playing cricket to pass time during their summer holidays. Even the idea of the police recognizing this as a 'complaint' would have been unthinkable earlier. We are becoming very petty and fight with each other for absolutely stupid things. So, to that extent, I have to disagree; it is not just any misplaced nostalgic yearning. I have seen firsthand how a once friendly citizenry is becoming rather uptight and given the sheer population density it supports, that is a very sad development. |
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 3281 |
Posted: May 01 2012 at 00:06 |
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I personally will be very very surprised if WWIII does not kick off within my life time (I'm 30) and I expect the water crisis to play a large role in it.*
But more on topic, I suspect this "people in the past were naturally more polite" thing is bollocks. One, people always lionise the past. Two, I'm not sure they were polite, more deferential to those they believed to be superior and/or concerned with what others thought/said about them, which caused them to behave as though they were polite. The Occupy Movement seemed to be something of a reaction against the rat race mentality, though an ineffectual one. *Yes, yes, I won't be surprised because it's impossible to be surprised at something not happening in your lifetime as it requires you first be dead, thanks Epignosis.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: April 30 2012 at 23:36 |
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That is indeed my point as well, funnily enough. Well, the rich have to endorse and live up to a value system, because, however vague a value system may be in theory, in practice it at least enforces some measure of discipline and consideration for the other person. In my parents' generation, people didn't turn away hungry passersby even if they didn't have enough to feed their own family for the night in the first place. Today, we don't even have the manners and courtesy to vacate the table for another customer once we are done, even when the restaurant is crowded. It seems a waiter has to walk up and nudge them gently to tell them to move on. People bathe their cars in several buckets of water everyday even when there is a nationwide water shortage in summer. I don't know where we are getting to with so much callousness and selfishness. And it's when the great water crisis of the 21st century REALLY kicks in that the 'fun' will start. By the way, it is not as if a person pursuing a respectable but modestly paying profession cannot make enough to meet his ends even today. At least in my country teachers are remunerated more handsomely than before because good teachers are in short supply. But there is seemingly no place for any kind of idealism in choosing a career; everyone is in a rat race for the jobs that pay best. |
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 3281 |
Posted: April 30 2012 at 22:57 |
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But this doesn't have to be the case. Long-range thinking is one of the defining elements of being intelligent/educated. With development of intellect and education, people can be made to see beyond the next five minutes. If this is stressed, you can end up with people more aware of negative consequences, who subsequently are less prone to wrecking things.
However, the problem is that the academics and intellectuals who seek the end I describe above, are in competition with producers of material goods, who want us to be thoughtless and impulsive so that we throw money at them in return for next to nothing. They have already successfully established the notion of learning=bad, wasting money=good in popular culture and reversing that is an uphill battle to say the least.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: April 30 2012 at 21:09 |
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Cause and effect is in the long run and as my economics professor was fond of saying, the long run never seems to come. I have seen many instances of short term, selfish decision making from people in positions of power. Not just politicians of whom expectations have probably become very low, but heads of large organizations, who declare large bonuses for themselves even as the company makes losses and the rest of the staff is subject to austerity measures. Once you multiply the financial stakes to a certain level - and this mainly happened in the 90s and onwards - it becomes difficult to weigh pros and cons and the opportunity to make a killing looks irresistible. This kind of thinking eventually percolates downward so that it's every man for himself and the idea of the greater good of all is merely paid lip service to. |
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 3281 |
Posted: April 30 2012 at 19:16 |
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Not if you educate people about balance and cause and effect. Making the world worse in order to make money personally still makes the world worse, and it's not in your self-interest to cause deterioration to the place you live in because eventually people will be paying the piper or people you care about could be under the gun.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: April 30 2012 at 10:40 |
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For you and me, yes. But it's easier to convince 700 million farmers of the existence of God than to hold their attention through a discourse on metaphysics. To that extent, religion has or had some practical utility, until the ruling class became greedy enough to use religion to sanction corrupt or cruel acts...and that was where the trouble began. What are we of the middle class going to do about anything in any case? As long as we are comfortable and hold steady jobs, we are not a threat. But the social adjustment depends heavily on keeping lower income groups happy. These days, though, the ruling class seems to have become so intoxicated with power and wealth that they believe they can trample on the masses and get away with it perpetually. I have a feeling the endgame will be messy.
But the real world is perceptive and subjective, thereby also allowing enough margin for people to rationalize their mistakes and develop their own value systems to justify themselves if they so wish. I am not a religious person, just by the by, but between two evils to control people - religion and money - I do believe the former is at least marginally preferable because there is at least the pretense of good intentions. But once we get to the money game, any means can be justified by the end....of making hitherto unheard of money. |
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 3281 |
Posted: April 29 2012 at 21:03 |
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Rogerthat: But it's a carrot and stick that isn't rooted in reality. While it's possible that heaven and hell exist, it's quite easy to come to the conclusion that they don't. One also encounters the problem of "forgiveness", where sins become A-OK as long as you accept X as your saviour or say a certain prayer after sinning. This is where the church sold out and stressed membership of the club over following its rules.Our moral incentives should be as centred in the real world because they will be that much more convincing.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: April 29 2012 at 19:35 |
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And does that not have all the potential to essentially be a selfish proposition? Perhaps I am alone then in believing that a entirely selfish social setup is not feasible. If people are really going to ask, "What's in it for me?" every time an appeal is made to them for help, we are headed for deep trouble. |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: April 29 2012 at 19:33 |
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I think the carrot and stick is quite important when it comes to a large section of people. What exact higher quality of life you or I pursue is hard to judge and we cannot have a value system based on these things. Societies which were religious BECAME awful because the religious leaders eventually turned corrupt. I don't see that dispensing with religion alone will solve the problem; we need something else to fill the breach. Right now, it is absolutely ok to pay a politician's way to power and make him pass laws that are detrimental to national interest just because it suits your own. And what's new is it is even justified as being nothing more than human nature. If that indeed be human nature, then humanity has set itself on the long, painful path to decay and deterioration. Unfortunately, people are just too preoccupied with their lifestyle to either realize this or care about it or both. |
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RoyFairbank
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 07 2008 Location: Somewhere Status: Offline Points: 1072 |
Posted: April 29 2012 at 16:48 |
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Agreed that values don't come from religion. That's a metaphysical proposition itself. Values should be based on utility on the one hand and thinking-ahead on the other. Both are important. Religion tends to take values of a certain utility at some point and makes them eternal, so that they neither think ahead nor adapt to changed circumstances or exceptions. This leads to significant errors. A scientific viewpoint adapts and bases values on conscious understanding of what goes into utility and what is good in the long term, based on evidence and rationalism. |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: April 29 2012 at 16:29 |
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Through the Courts of the bureau of The Feeble District Clerk who awfully jinxed over why we still haven't split tries to close up.
Hailey stops that. We're here to get circled. Don't let me ask twice. O. Hey. You. But. One jar for two. Halfandhalf. Ladling lumpy spoons. Liponlip, tonguetotongue doubling an amber moustache. |
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 3281 |
Posted: April 29 2012 at 15:27 |
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Rogerthat: Except look at societies where religion rules or ruled. They're awful as well. Sure, they give you a values system, but it's like communism, only works on paper. In reality, the leaders feel they're above that values system.
And there's nothing moral about values that come from religion anyway. People follow them in pursuit of a higher quality afterlife, heaven and hell is just carrot and stick.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: April 29 2012 at 12:51 |
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it's really funny because I assume as usual, Textbook did this just for sh*ts
I really think he's compiling a book about human nature and is gunna use all this crap he's compiled on PA for it |
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darkshade
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 19 2005 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 10964 |
Posted: April 29 2012 at 10:25 |
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Restaurants are the ones that waste food. I work at one, and have worked at other ones as well. I'd say, on average, that we dispose of about 25% of all the food that is made. |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: April 29 2012 at 07:41 |
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The point in general about Ryan Seacrest is valid but its roots are pretty deep and at least a century old, if not more. By and by, the ruling class have discovered the power of money and learnt to exploit it better and better. And the more they do so, the more they use their position irresponsibly and take predatory, heartless decisions. In this way, a lot many educated people have become disillusioned with religion or at any rate, leaders use religion as a weapon to perpetrate evil acts of cruelty. And without religion, it is very difficult to support a value system. Why should I give you the respect that I would like to be given by other people? Why should I exhibit courtesy, why should I show empathy or compassion? Why indeed if there is no God that might punish me for not doing so?
I am not saying it is impossible to have a value system without religion but it is certainly difficult to get a large number of people to embrace values without God faith to sort of coerce them into it. Human civilization remains in equilibrium through a delicate social adjustment which we are and have been for several years now in the process of breaking down. Because there is no God. The God that priestly folk talk about is just on paper. The only God is the thing that buys you food and makes you rich enough that you can show off and sneer at people who are less fortunate than you. So may God help the world. Edited by rogerthat - April 29 2012 at 07:41 |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32491 |
Posted: April 29 2012 at 07:10 |
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I would hope you would check to see if grocery stores, et al. donate food past its sell-by date to charity before making such a sweeping accusation. You might also consider local or state government regulations that would make giving such food to the needy is a crime. But even then, stores will donate edible but unsalable produce to zoos, animal feed-makers, or compost manufacturers. A supermarket's first priority is to make a profit. Wasting food and having poor public relations does not accomplish that. It actually costs the supermarket money to dispose of food, and they can write off the donation on their taxes.
You chose to use your time to play video games instead of helping the needy?
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 3281 |
Posted: April 29 2012 at 04:28 |
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Looking around the supermarket and cafes and so on, I wonder how much of the food available there is never sold at all. It must be quite a lot. So we have a whole lot of producers/suppliers knowingly wasting food because they'd rather have the possibility of personal profit than the actual good of diverting these surplus foodstuff to the needy.
Priorities. I was playing the Fallout games and wandering this landscape with echoes of civility and intellect that are distorted by filters of savagery and destruction and I got to wondering if this is what it's already like in some people's minds, the great achievements of culture embedded in their heads left smouldering, half-remembered husks by the bombardment of the nuclear warheads of shallow, self-interested consumerism.
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Ryan Seacrest Makes $15 Million A Year
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Textbook wrote:
