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Divisive Prog Albums

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David_D View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:57
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. ............
...............

Allright! That is a very thorough approach. Thumbs Up
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:35
^ in Chris H's defence I didn't post the full review (which is why I wrote "from"). I guess there's minimal improvement, but here's the rest:

...Maybe you need to be on shrooms to get everything out of them? Just a thought...

Well anyways, "Bring Me Coffee Or Tea" is the only listenable track on this album, even the so called "epic" "Halleluwah", which is once again, pointless. It's just a shame "Bring Me Coffee Or Tea" was the first song I heard, because it cost me $2.50. 1 star, DO NOT BUY!...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:24
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

From Chris H review of the incredible Tago Mago by Can (Krautrock is in general more popular anyywhere else but here)
the track "Bring Me Coffee or Tea" off of somewhere, I can't remember at the moment, but
I actually rather liked it. So one day I was poking around some bargain bins, and lo and
behold here it was. I bought it for $2.50, and popped it in the stereo. It couldn't have
been 10 minutes before my mother comes up and says "What is this crap?". I couldn't
agree more Mom! This has to take the cake for the most pointless album ever made. Ever. "Peking O"
and "Mushroom" are two of the stupidest, pointless songs I have ever heard...



that's a review?! Stern Smile And here i thought I was bad at it. (ffs Censored LOL)


That's not a review, it's a pointless rant. Another person who doesn't get it and has a hissy fit about an album beyond his / her comprehension.


well, it is a review it seems. I think some people just forget it's not just what you say (that matters), it's how you say it it's just as important. 


No it’s not a review. It conveys absolutely nothing about the album just the listeners inability to process it

if it's not a review, report it, tell the admins to get rid of it. LOL
You can argue it's a poorly written, useless review and I'd agree. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Negoba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:23
I also dislike Tago Mago. Are you assuming I can't understand or process it?

Ash Ra Tempel's debut is one of my favorite all time albums, BTW.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:21
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

From Chris H review of the incredible Tago Mago by Can (Krautrock is in general more popular anyywhere else but here)
<div ="avatarhp-"="">







1 stars ...Hmmm, this listen was uhhh interesting? Let me start from the beginning here. I had heard
the track "Bring Me Coffee or Tea" off of somewhere, I can't remember at the moment, but
I actually rather liked it. So one day I was poking around some bargain bins, and lo and
behold here it was. I bought it for $2.50, and popped it in the stereo. It couldn't have
been 10 minutes before my mother comes up and says "What is this crap?". I couldn't
agree more Mom! This has to take the cake for the most pointless album ever made. Ever. "Peking O"
and "Mushroom" are two of the stupidest, pointless songs I have ever heard...



that's a review?! Stern Smile And here i thought I was bad at it. (ffs Censored LOL)


That's not a review, it's a pointless rant. Another person who doesn't get it and has a hissy fit about an album beyond his / her comprehension.


well, it is a review it seems. I think some people just forget it's not just what you say (that matters), it's how you say it it's just as important. 


No it’s not a review. It conveys absolutely nothing about the album just the listeners inability to process it

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:07
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Does Steven Wilson's "The Future Bites" qualify as "divisive album" under the criteria outlined in your math formula?

I say it is divisive ,based on what I've seen here on PA and a couple other sites I've visited. People either praise it or totally dislike it. 


Edited by Cristi - May 08 2023 at 12:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 11:58
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. Rating any album 3 or 4 stars is pretty normal, so a "divisive" album should have many 5 and 2 or 1 while having a good number of ratings. Looking at typical percentages I'd say that a divisive album should at least have 20% 5 star ratings and at least 10% 2 or 1 star (people come here for the music they like, so there's more going on at the upper end; an album with less than 20% 5 star just isn't very appreciated).

Let's have a look at some albums discussed here. Tales from Topographic Oceans just has 7% negative, Brain Salad Surgery has 5%, The Wall has 6% (Final Cut only 14% 5 stars on the other hand, against 28% negative ratings; Ummagumma has 14:18, kind of divisive but not very many who appreciate it highly though I'm one of them), A Passion Play just 5%, Tago Mago 7%, Awake 5%, Frances the Mute 8%. So all these are not super divisive as there are not that many who rate them 1 or 2. ALT on the other hand has only 7% 5 stars against 53% 1 or 2; other well known VDGG don't make 10% 1 or 2 stars, neither most of King Crimson, though Beat with 9:20 looks very negative (I'm one of the 9% to rate it at 5 stars!).

The most divisive album I have found is Trout Mask Replica, which collects 40% 5 stars against 20% 1/2 stars. That's quite something. Dream Theater's The Astonishing clocks in at 22% 5 stars, 32% 1 or 2 - in fact 22% 5 stars is quite astonishing with 32% negatives. A View From the Top of The World scores 31:12 (but doesn't have that many ratings), Octavarium 26:11. Dream Theater are pretty divisive indeed, if not Awake.

Later Mars Volta's Bedlam in Goliath qualifies with 24:15. Amarok just about makes the cut with 42:11. Zeit is indeed pretty divisive with 30:12. Not quite up there but still in is one of my favourites, My Life in the Bush of Ghosts (30:10).

Looking at Zappa, Jazz From Hell misses by an inch with 19:11, other than that I didn't find any that came close to qualifying (occasionally 8% negative for generally appreciated albums). Neither get Gentle Giant in, nor Genesis (far too few negatives up to Wind and Wuthering, far too few 5 stars after), nor Camel (I think of Breathless as divisive, but just 10% 5 stars are not enough for this game).
  
Rush has Power Windows at 22:13 (I don't know that one), otherwise they are not quite as divisive. Let's look at Swans, The Seer has 36:13, To Be Kind 33:15, very divisive! There are more, but they have fewer than 100 ratings; even The Seer and To Be Kind have quite a bit fewer ratings than most other albums I mention here.

Just seen: Tangerine Dream Cyclone seemed to be a good candidate to me, but I'm surprised that it only has 8% 1 or 2 stars (personally I like it a lot).



Does Steven Wilson's "The Future Bites" qualify as "divisive album" under the criteria outlined in your math formula?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 11:41
I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. Rating any album 3 or 4 stars is pretty normal, so a "divisive" album should have many 5 and 2 or 1 while having a good number of ratings. Looking at typical percentages I'd say that a divisive album should at least have 20% 5 star ratings and at least 10% 2 or 1 star (people come here for the music they like, so there's more going on at the upper end; an album with less than 20% 5 star just isn't very appreciated).

Let's have a look at some albums discussed here. Tales from Topographic Oceans just has 7% negative, Brain Salad Surgery has 5%, The Wall has 6% (Final Cut only 14% 5 stars on the other hand, against 28% negative ratings; Ummagumma has 14:18, kind of divisive but not very many who appreciate it highly though I'm one of them), A Passion Play just 5%, Tago Mago 7%, Awake 5%, Frances the Mute 8%. So all these are not super divisive as there are not that many who rate them 1 or 2. ALT on the other hand has only 7% 5 stars against 53% 1 or 2; other well known VDGG don't make 10% 1 or 2 stars, neither most of King Crimson, though Beat with 9:20 looks very negative (I'm one of the 9% to rate it at 5 stars!).

The most divisive album I have found is Trout Mask Replica, which collects 40% 5 stars against 20% 1/2 stars. That's quite something. Dream Theater's The Astonishing clocks in at 22% 5 stars, 32% 1 or 2 - in fact 22% 5 stars is quite astonishing with 32% negatives. A View From the Top of The World scores 31:12 (but doesn't have that many ratings), Octavarium 26:11. Dream Theater are pretty divisive indeed, if not Awake.

Later Mars Volta's Bedlam in Goliath qualifies with 24:15. Amarok just about makes the cut with 42:11. Zeit is indeed pretty divisive with 30:12. Not quite up there but still in is one of my favourites, My Life in the Bush of Ghosts (30:10).

Looking at Zappa, Jazz From Hell misses by an inch with 19:11, other than that I didn't find any that came close to qualifying (occasionally 8% negative for generally appreciated albums). Neither get Gentle Giant in, nor Genesis (far too few negatives up to Wind and Wuthering, far too few 5 stars after), nor Camel (I think of Breathless as divisive, but just 10% 5 stars are not enough for this game).
  
Rush has Power Windows at 22:13 (I don't know that one), otherwise they are not quite as divisive. Let's look at Swans, The Seer has 36:13, To Be Kind 33:15, very divisive! There are more, but they have fewer than 100 ratings; even The Seer and To Be Kind have quite a bit fewer ratings than most other albums I mention here.

Just seen: Tangerine Dream Cyclone seemed to be a good candidate to me, but I'm surprised that it only has 8% 1 or 2 stars (personally I like it a lot).


Edited by Lewian - May 08 2023 at 11:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 11:13
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

The very definition of divisive.



You're probably right.
I have always enjoyed it. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 11:04
The very definition of divisive.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 11:01
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Undoubtedly, The YES Album that's been the Big Generator of the most controversy over the years is Tales from Topographic Oceans. YES, it's a long double album with four long Yessongswhich was treated as something of a rotten Tormato by the cynical music press, but if you Open Your Eyes, you'll gain The Keys to Ascension and realise what a classic album this is. The album came Close to the Edge of splitting the band up, when there was a Magnification of tensions within the group with so many Fragile egos at stake. In the ensuing Drama, Time and a Word has it that Rick Wakeman threatened to walk out during the recording of the album. The album climbed The Ladder of success though, topping the UK album charts for two weeks. Rick Wakeman left the band and didn't appear on the following Relayer album. There was Talk of a re-Union, but Heaven & Earth had to be moved to persuade Rick to return for the Going for the One album in 1977. The best-selling YES album of all time though, released in 1983, was famously named after its catalogue number, 90125Smile

LOLLOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 10:52
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

From Chris H review of the incredible Tago Mago by Can (Krautrock is in general more popular anyywhere else but here)
1 stars ...Hmmm, this listen was uhhh interesting? Let me start from the beginning here. I had heard the track "Bring Me Coffee or Tea" off of somewhere, I can't remember at the moment, but I actually rather liked it. So one day I was poking around some bargain bins, and lo and behold here it was. I bought it for $2.50, and popped it in the stereo. It couldn't have been 10 minutes before my mother comes up and says "What is this crap?". I couldn't agree more Mom! This has to take the cake for the most pointless album ever made. Ever. "Peking O" and "Mushroom" are two of the stupidest, pointless songs I have ever heard...

that's a review?! Stern Smile And here i thought I was bad at it. (ffs Censored LOL)


That's not a review, it's a pointless rant. Another person who doesn't get it and has a hissy fit about an album beyond his / her comprehension.

well, it is a review it seems. I think some people just forget it's not just what you say (that matters), it's how you say it it's just as important. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 10:45
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

From Chris H review of the incredible Tago Mago by Can (Krautrock is in general more popular anyywhere else but here)
1 stars ...Hmmm, this listen was uhhh interesting? Let me start from the beginning here. I had heard the track "Bring Me Coffee or Tea" off of somewhere, I can't remember at the moment, but I actually rather liked it. So one day I was poking around some bargain bins, and lo and behold here it was. I bought it for $2.50, and popped it in the stereo. It couldn't have been 10 minutes before my mother comes up and says "What is this crap?". I couldn't agree more Mom! This has to take the cake for the most pointless album ever made. Ever. "Peking O" and "Mushroom" are two of the stupidest, pointless songs I have ever heard...

that's a review?! Stern Smile And here i thought I was bad at it. (ffs Censored LOL)


That's not a review, it's a pointless rant. Another person who doesn't get it and has a hissy fit about an album beyond his / her comprehension.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 10:44
Albums are divisive for one simple reason. Some people GET IT and some don't.
You have to have the musical ability to comprehend the intention of the artist at hand.
I've found many of the most divisive albums are actually some of the best musical expressions to be heard.
Tales From Topographic Oceans is the perfect example.
Brilliant in every way but not instant gratification for those unwilling to dig deeper.
This has always been the case whether it be jazz, 20th century classical or any musical expression.
Over the years i've seen the ratings for many of these divisive albums rise as people catch up to the artists' visions.
THis probably sounds snobbish but you can't comprehend calculus if you haven't mastered basic algebra :)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 09:33
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

From Chris H review of the incredible Tago Mago by Can (Krautrock is in general more popular anyywhere else but here)
1 stars ...Hmmm, this listen was uhhh interesting? Let me start from the beginning here. I had heard the track "Bring Me Coffee or Tea" off of somewhere, I can't remember at the moment, but I actually rather liked it. So one day I was poking around some bargain bins, and lo and behold here it was. I bought it for $2.50, and popped it in the stereo. It couldn't have been 10 minutes before my mother comes up and says "What is this crap?". I couldn't agree more Mom! This has to take the cake for the most pointless album ever made. Ever. "Peking O" and "Mushroom" are two of the stupidest, pointless songs I have ever heard...

that's a review?! Stern Smile And here i thought I was bad at it. (ffs Censored LOL)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 09:29
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

^^ My opinion is divided on that issue. Tongue

Anyway, I'm sure I can't be the only one here who dislikes those ten albums. Can I? Geek

Zeit is a 2-star album for me too. Wink

A dash of half-and-half with your caffeinated opinion, Paul. 

I never listen to... at least, not anymore:
Adrian Belew - Lone Rhino
Steve Hackett - Cured
Peter Hammill - A Black Box
Thieves' Kitchen - Head 

I adore:
Robert Fripp - Exposure
King Crimson - Larks' Tongues in Aspic
Motorpsycho - The Death-Defying Unicorn
Island - Pictures

Island-Pictures scares me. I collect and cherish my Halloween prog. Especially Lovecraft or Giger inspired Halloween goodies...err baddies.

 The first time I listened to Larks?  I spun the vinyl and began dusting my room.  Several times I zig-zagged back to turn up the volume, because I couldn't hear it.  Suddenly a sonic blast overwhelmed me...scared the daylights out of me. I loved Larks ever since.


Still Wrapping My Head Around:
Gentle Giant - Three Friends
Van der Graaf Generator - Pawn Hearts 

I don't get it...yet.  Holding out hope, that it will click in a big way.  It's happened before. Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 09:17
From Chris H review of the incredible Tago Mago by Can (Krautrock is in general more popular anyywhere else but here)
1 stars ...Hmmm, this listen was uhhh interesting? Let me start from the beginning here. I had heard the track "Bring Me Coffee or Tea" off of somewhere, I can't remember at the moment, but I actually rather liked it. So one day I was poking around some bargain bins, and lo and behold here it was. I bought it for $2.50, and popped it in the stereo. It couldn't have been 10 minutes before my mother comes up and says "What is this crap?". I couldn't agree more Mom! This has to take the cake for the most pointless album ever made. Ever. "Peking O" and "Mushroom" are two of the stupidest, pointless songs I have ever heard...


Edited by Saperlipopette! - May 08 2023 at 09:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 09:02
Brain Salad Surgery has always been a part of my life.  I love all my Brain Salad Surgery children...I'm looking at you, Bennie The Bouncer.  I find it funny that Bennie is a controversial figure among progheads. 

 Jerusalem was the controversial song among the few who knew...in the public square.  Two controversial songs on one album...depending on your point of view.  Carl Palmer commented-

  “Jerusalem” was recorded by us, and it was banned immediately by the BBC. We thought it was an unbelievable piece of music. It actually summed up prog rock, British prog rock, in that moment in time. It had everything. It was so grand, it was so English, and it was absolutely perfect for the voice."

Zeit?  "The music consists in 2-3 humming refrigerators at the same time, plus a portative fan that turns back and forth to make the anyway inexistent rhythm..."  Funny.  Very funny.LOL




Edited by omphaloskepsis - May 08 2023 at 10:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 08:30
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

As a rule I'd say, the divisive albums can be those which in general are middle-rated, and not those which are low- or high-rated,
as there's a majority agreement about the latter ones.

A bit edited addition to my argument in case, it could be difficult to see the logic in it. Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 08:26
Zeit is a great pick, took me ages to get my head round it.
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