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Dayvenkirq 
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Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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 Posted: July 29 2014 at 13:46 |
 LSDisease wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
2) Execution. One of the tough things about "Fracture" is the complexity of execution of certain parts of the piece. For example, the moto perpetuo section. The finger-playing of that section felt so awkward, and the section is so fast, that I've spent hours trying to nail it and failed miserably. And the part after it where two strings alternate at a fast speed is also tough to execute. I believe that's where Robert uses cross-picking. I've tried cross-picking it, but it made the playing even harder.  |
certain parts may appear hard to play cos they go fast but that's all |
You've read the part where I mentioned the chemistry of speed, technique, and awkward fingerplay, right? If you play a note really fast, things don't get much more difficult. Speed alone doesn't add to the difficulty. We are talking playing whole tones here.
Try playing the whole piece yourself.
LSDisease wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
3) Whole-tone melodies. Many guitar players are comfortable with major/minor tonalities and/or modes. I've heard a few jazz and blues guitar players saying that when you write a solo for a guitar, you use the root, 3rd, and 7th as the most effective notes. But what about whole tones? Whole tones is a territory unfamiliar to a lot of us. It is difficult to write something good and original using them. I've tried. |
Bill Bruford once said that in KC nothing was set, you were just supposed to know. I believe Fripp didn't write it down, he took his guitar and played something like that off the top of his head. |
I think it's "said" (as in "mentioned"), not "set", but I may be wrong, though it's that change of words that changes the meaning of the sentence.
I believe Bill mentioned this kind of philosophy when it comes to improvisation. The Crims weren't all about improvisation. Nothing is said when you improvise. You are just supposed to know what notes to hit, what chord is to be played next, etc.
LSDisease wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
4) Composition format - this isn't a verse-chorus-verse-chorus -type song. This is a piece where motifs recur in unpredictable places. |
you don't have to have some special abilities to write a song not based on a verse chorus verse chorus pattern. |
You are right, you don't. Here by complexity I mean something opposite to simplicity. It's easy to comply with an already given conventional format, but to write something creative form-wise requires a direction and an imagination. If you deviate from something like AABB or AABA, if you write something like ABABCDE, then you are making your piece more complicated in form.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 29 2014 at 13:51
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O666
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Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
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Points: 2619
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 11:20 |
Rating RF?! Underrate maybe but overrate..... I dont understand some of members. I saw strange posts these days in PA. One guy said "I hate Yes" and other guy write "Genesis hit me" (in positive attitude) and now "Robert Fripp is overrated". I think some guys come in wrong address!! Maybe some of you dont like Progressive music. Maybe some guys try to show themselves "Different Guys". Who knows.
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giselle
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2011
Location: Hertford
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Points: 466
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 10:39 |
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Definitely not! An artistic guitarist of the highest order! Though I don't agree with everything he's done by any means, I applaud his willingness to go out their on the edges and not conform to expectations.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20525
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 10:29 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
Regardless of whether you care for his music or
otherwise, Fripp has always steadfastly refused to fill that 'heroic
virtuoso' role created for him by Rawk's star system many years
ago. (His sitting down to play was, amongst other things, a reaction to such conditioning) Bob has simply too much intelligence, dignity and Integrity to
stoop to conquer a marketplace he clearly views with considerable
suspicion. This makes him a deeply unpopular figure within the music
entertainment industry. Long may he continue to get up the noses of
Rock's archly conservative rank and file air guitarists everywhere. (You
know who you are)
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I agree whole heartily that Fripp despised the practices of the music industry that kept many a dollar out of the pockets of artists, but I believe that Mr. Fripp coping a seat maybe due more to his 'eccentric' traits than any conscious revolution. After all, the man was said had many quirks. 
Edited by SteveG - July 29 2014 at 10:33
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LSDisease
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 494
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 10:15 |
Blacksword wrote:
I've heard people say Lifeson is the weak link in Rush. I can't imagine Rush with anyone else tbh. |
Probably those people are deaf. Or their ears are the weak link in their bodies.
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"Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!"
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LSDisease
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 494
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 10:10 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
2) Execution. One of the tough things about "Fracture" is the complexity of execution of certain parts of the piece. For example, the moto perpetuo section. The finger-playing of that section felt so awkward, and the section is so fast, that I've spent hours trying to nail it and failed miserably. And the part after it where two strings alternate at a fast speed is also tough to execute. I believe that's where Robert uses cross-picking. I've tried cross-picking it, but it made the playing even harder. |
certain parts may appear hard to play cos they go fast but that's all
Dayvenkirq wrote:
3) Whole-tone melodies. Many guitar players are comfortable with major/minor tonalities and/or modes. I've heard a few jazz and blues guitar players saying that when you write a solo for a guitar, you use the root, 3rd, and 7th as the most effective notes. But what about whole tones? Whole tones is a territory unfamiliar to a lot of us. It is difficult to write something good and original using them. I've tried. |
Bill Bruford once said that in KC nothing was set, you were just supposed to know. I believe Fripp didn't write it down, he took his guitar and played something like that off the top of his head.
Dayvenkirq wrote:
4) Composition format - this isn't a verse-chorus-verse-chorus -type song. This is a piece where motifs recur in unpredictable places. |
you don't have to have some special abilities to write a song not based on a verse chorus verse chorus pattern.
Edited by LSDisease - July 29 2014 at 10:16
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"Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!"
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 09:50 |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Points: 10970
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 06:16 |
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^ I don't know. I shall look into it.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 06:05 |
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What about sweeps, is that a regular feature in his repertoire? Forgive me if it's an,impertinent question as I am not a guitarist. I do want to point out that from what I have read of new standard tuning, Fripp aimed to be able to play guitar like a piano, in other words for classical music.
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Dayvenkirq
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Joined: May 25 2011
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Points: 10970
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:41 |
^ OK, ... then I relied on insufficient information. My bad.
... But I never said I was 100% sure ... ... but I'm still sure. Fast hammer-ons, pull-offs, arpeggios, etc. aren't that tough to handle. Practice is all you need.
rogerthat wrote:
Well, you could help the discussion by explaining what part of Fracture makes it so tough. You are not doing that. Ok, I will illustrate. This is what you said as explanation for what makes Fracture complex:
"Chord structures, execution (not just of arpeggios), whole-tone melodies, composition format, etc."
Ok, what chord structures? Why are they complex? Why are they tough to play? Can you elaborate? In what way is the execution demanding? If I claimed a certain song was tough to sing and somebody asked me what part of it was, I would certainly be able to pinpoint, be it the range or the amount of distortion used, the breath control required, the intricacy of the melismas, etc. |
Fair enough. LSDisease, here we go.
1) Chord structures - I was actually thinking "unconventional use of chords" rather than "complexity", so forget that one. (However, this one does give rise to the complexity of execution.)
2) Execution. One of the tough things about "Fracture" is the complexity of execution of certain parts of the piece. For example, the moto perpetuo section. The finger-playing of that section felt so awkward, and the section is so fast, that I've spent hours trying to nail it and failed miserably. And the part after it where two strings alternate at a fast speed is also tough to execute. I believe that's where Robert uses cross-picking. I've tried cross-picking it, but it made the playing even harder.
3) Whole-tone melodies. Many guitar players are comfortable with major/minor tonalities and/or modes. I've heard a few jazz and blues guitar players saying that when you write a solo for a guitar, you use the root, 3rd, and 7th as the most effective notes. But what about whole tones? Whole tones is a territory unfamiliar to a lot of us. It is difficult to write something good and original using them. I've tried.
4) Composition format - this isn't a verse-chorus-verse-chorus -type song. This is a piece where motifs recur in unpredictable places.
So, as you can see, the idea of complexity has many sides to it.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 29 2014 at 06:36
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LSDisease
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 494
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:36 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
I never even implied that. I said "maybe he could", but I never said "he would". Again, don't assume. Go over what was actually said.
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your words " I'm sure Robert could nail that rendition of Caprice if he chose to".
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"Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!"
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:30 |
LSDisease wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
"Ease of playing" and "complexity" are not the same thing. So far you haven't proven anything with anything. You have not used any technical terms or discussed any objective characteristics. Saying "I have proven you wrong" doesn't prove anything. |
Take a look at this, where's that complexity? And don't tell me you hear it's complex, if you can read tabs you see it's not very complex http://www.songsterr.com/a/wsa/king-crimson-fracture-tab-s40543t0
[QUOTE=Dayvenkirq] I never said he would play or be able to play this or that. All I'm saying is this: you don't know whether or not he would not be able to play this or that. You keep making assumptions, you fill in the gaps by relying on insufficient information. |
Y ou said something like you're pretty sure he'd nail it. But you can't prove that, all you have are KC albums.[/QUOTE]
I never even implied that. I said "maybe he could", but I never said "he would". Again, don't assume. Go over what was actually said.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 29 2014 at 05:30
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LSDisease
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 494
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:17 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
"Ease of playing" and "complexity" are not the same thing. So far you haven't proven anything with anything. You have not used any technical terms or discussed any objective characteristics. Saying "I have proven you wrong" doesn't prove anything. |
Take a look at this, where's that complexity? And don't tell me you hear it's complex, if you can read tabs you see it's not very complex http://www.songsterr.com/a/wsa/king-crimson-fracture-tab-s40543t0
[QUOTE=Dayvenkirq] I never said he would play or be able to play this or that. All I'm saying is this: you don't know whether or not he would not be able to play this or that. You keep making assumptions, you fill in the gaps by relying on insufficient information. [/QUOTE]
you said something like you're pretty sure he'd nail it. But you can't prove that, all you have are KC albums.
Edited by LSDisease - July 29 2014 at 05:18
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"Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!"
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LSDisease
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 494
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:11 |
rogerthat wrote:
I agree with that. But if suppose Fripp indeed cannot play shred guitar the way Marty Friedman can, there is no need to grudge Friedman that, which is where the above discussion seems to be going. Or is it necessary that Fripp has to be the best in each and everything he does? And by the way, Friedman is one of the most tasteful shredders because he does NOT rely only on speed. Maybe he did that on Cacophony, but not with Megadeth; Tornado of Souls is one of the most memorable guitar solos in metal.
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First Cacophony album is completely senseless, but the second is a very good one with memorable songs. Take Black Cat (I nailed that second solo from the intro) or Images. Beautiful music, but there's also Jason Becker as a second shredder.
Edited by LSDisease - July 29 2014 at 05:12
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"Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!"
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:11 |
Well, you could help the discussion by explaining what part of Fracture makes it so tough. You are not doing that. Ok, I will illustrate. This is what you said as explanation for what makes Fracture complex:
"Chord structures, execution (not just of arpeggios), whole-tone melodies, composition format, etc."
Ok, what chord structures? Why are they complex? Why are they tough to play? Can you elaborate? In what way is the execution demanding? If I claimed a certain song was tough to sing and somebody asked me what part of it was, I would certainly be able to pinpoint, be it the range or the amount of distortion used, the breath control required, the intricacy of the melismas, etc.
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:07 |
rogerthat wrote:
Both of you guys need to get a lot more specific...or else aborting the discussion might serve you better rather than coming back to square one all over again and again. If you say Fracture is complex and difficult to execute, it has to be explained in specific terms. I know guitarist friends who can break down a part like that so don't tell me that's difficult to do. And if you say Fracture is easy, prove it. Either play it yourself or find a friend who can. Just making vague allegations that the other guy doesn't get it is not a helpful way to debate. |
It's just that there seems to be a confusion of simple ideas. I don't know why. I try to be as specific as I can. I'm looking for proof from the other party, for answers, but I'm not getting anything. Watch this:
===================
LSDisease wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Again with the "actually". It's subjective as to what is special. And what do you mean by "a combination of sounds that lie close to each other"? It's called whole tones. The first part of the piece is just as complex as the rest of it thanks to the whole tones. |
No it's not, it's easy to play. You said you proved complexity of Fracture, I proved you wrong. |
"Ease of playing" and "complexity" are not the same thing. So far you haven't proven anything with anything. You have not used any technical terms or discussed any objective characteristics. Saying "I have proven you wrong" doesn't prove anything.
LSDisease wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
I don't get it. How does that answer my question? This needs a technical explanation. |
all you have are KC albums and live shows, nothing more...and because you're not Fripp's friend coming to his house and hear him playing you can't just say he would play this or that. |
I never said he would play or be able to play this or that. All I'm saying is this: you don't know whether or not he would not be able to play this or that. You keep making assumptions, you fill in the gaps by relying on insufficient information.
=======================
Hope you can see it now, Rog.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 29 2014 at 05:13
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LSDisease
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
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Points: 494
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:06 |
Blacksword wrote:
^^^ and I'll take an original composer over some "look at me mum" shredder any day of the week. I grew up all excited about long haired guitarists who could play really fast and use classical references in their music. Then I discovered the likes of Lifeson, Gilmour and Fripp and all those 'heroes' just seemed a bit... you know.. 
Plus they mostly made predictable sh*t music imo... |
Lifeson is better than the remaining two.
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"Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!"
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:05 |
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Both of you guys need to get a lot more specific...or else aborting the discussion might serve you better rather than coming back to square one all over again and again. If you say Fracture is complex and difficult to execute, it has to be explained in specific terms. I know guitarist friends who can break down a part like that so don't tell me that's difficult to do. And if you say Fracture is easy, prove it. Either play it yourself or find a friend who can. Just making vague allegations that the other guy doesn't get it is not a helpful way to debate.
Edited by rogerthat - July 29 2014 at 05:06
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LSDisease
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 494
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:02 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Again with the "actually". It's subjective as to
what is special. And what do you mean by "a combination of sounds that
lie close to each other"? It's called whole tones. The first part of the
piece is just as complex as the rest of it thanks to the whole tones.
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No it's not, it's easy to play. You said you proved complexity of Fracture I proved you wrong.
Dayvenkirq wrote:
I don't get it. How does that answer my question? This needs a technical explanation.
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all
you have are KC albums and live shows, nothing more...and because
you're not Fripp's friend coming to his house and hear him playing you
can't just say he would play this or that
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"Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!"
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 04:55 |
Blacksword wrote:
^^^ and I'll take an original composer over some "look at me mum" shredder any day of the week. I grew up all excited about long haired guitarists who could play really fast and use classical references in their music. Then I discovered the likes of Lifeson, Gilmour and Fripp and all those 'heroes' just seemed a bit... you know..
Plus they mostly made predictable sh*t music imo... |
I agree with that. But if suppose Fripp indeed cannot play shred guitar the way Marty Friedman can, there is no need to grudge Friedman that, which is where the above discussion seems to be going. Or is it necessary that Fripp has to be the best in each and everything he does? And by the way, Friedman is one of the most tasteful shredders because he does NOT rely only on speed. Maybe he did that on Cacophony, but not with Megadeth; Tornado of Souls is one of the most memorable guitar solos in metal.
Edited by rogerthat - July 29 2014 at 05:00
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Is Robert Fripp Overrated?
