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micky 
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 Topic: A Rush Song VS An ELP Song
Posted: November 15 2014 at 07:01 |
 Padraic wrote:
I didn't think Rush centered around any of the three. They always brought something to the table in equal measure in my mind.
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I don't think I made my point clear enough Pat. A problem I often have haha. I'm not talking creatively, I'm talking about the 'sound' of the group. Yes Peart was probably the creative center of that group but to most, including myself, Rush's sound centered around what Geddy's bass. Geddy's bass was VERY prominent in Rush's music, and what their sound revolved around. Peart is a great drummer no doubt. Rush's sound did not revolve around him, no more than other groups revolved around similarly great drummers. There is only one group that has ever revolved around their drummer. It took a singularly unique talent to do that. One often (attempted) to duplicate but never done. One reason he is by any objective analysis the greatest rock drummer ever. Look at ELP for the clearest example of the difference between being the focus of a groups sound and the creative center. Obviously ELP's sound revolved around Emerson, but Lake was clearly the creative center of that group as was for the vast majority of their output. BSS was the major exception which they collaborated creativity. My original point being. I've seen this across bass and instrumental forums for many years were well-meaning people mistake ability and skill for a musicians prominence in a groups sound. Geddy is a great bassist, in a genre filled with them. Lake's bass work is not a prominent, it didn't have to be, and likely wouldn't have worked in ELP's overall sound. However to mistake, and many many have, that being the source of a groups sound makes them 'Better' instrumentalist, or more to the point, not being makes them worse is preposterous. Quite simply if Lake's playing ability was not up to the level set, and you better believe DEMANDED, by working with one of the handful of best drummers around and the keyboardist most consider the most talented ever, then he wouldn't have lasted in that group. Lake's playing is not the focus, thus an easy target by the ELP haters who think Lake was not a good bassist. A very very underrated bassist. Squire considered him a friend and rival and they did live together and work out many bass techniques and theories on how to move forward bass playing.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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prog4evr
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Joined: September 22 2005
Location: Wuhan, China
Status: Offline
Points: 1455
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Posted: November 15 2014 at 03:50 |
Geddy Lee is a monster on the bass - BUT, Greg Lake is a MEGA monster. Both great bassists, but Lake inches out over Lee for me...
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richardh
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Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26471
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Posted: November 15 2014 at 02:24 |
^ although Lee Jackson managed to achieve a fuller and punchier tone with his bass than Lake did when he was in The Nice. That said the complexity of some of Lake's playing is very impressive. His background as everyone knows was playing lead guitar not bass so that dictated his style to some extent. Lee is a great player and I would take him just over Lake although I take Chris Squire and Klaus Peter-Matziol (Eloy) over both of them.
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chopper
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Joined: July 13 2005
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Posted: November 14 2014 at 07:28 |
crimhead wrote:
No question that Geddy is the better bass player.
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That's debatable. Lake is a brilliant bass player but his playing tends to be drowned out amongst the low piano/keyboard notes that Emerson is playing.
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richardh
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Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26471
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Posted: November 14 2014 at 01:18 |
Raff wrote:
richardh wrote:
I actually love the power side of Genesis more than the nice pretty music made by a bunch of arty types fresh out of public school.
I just ordered a bunch of Le Orme albums which should alleviate my lack of RPI nutrition
Have you heard any Gerard? I would recommend the album Live In Marseilles. Its a constant onslaught with organ firmly to the front. Love it.  |
I will answer on behalf of my better half, who is still asleep  . Yes, we do have that Gerard album, and the other day we were listening to the other one we have - a sumptuous tribute to great keyboard tracks titled Keyboard Triangle.
As to RPI, there have been a bunch of great new releases in the past couple of years, by both old and new bands. If you love keyboards, I would recommend getting both Il Tempio delle Clessidre's albums. The keyboardist (and main composer) in question is a very talented and beautiful young lady by the name of Elisa Montaldo. Great stuff!
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That Keyboards Triangle album is a beauty. Thanks for the recommendations 
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rushfan4
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Joined: May 22 2007
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Posted: November 13 2014 at 15:51 |
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I can't argue that point with you. Obviously, Alex and Geddy are both integral parts of the band, but it is the lyrics, mostly written by Neil, and the drumming, which is exquisite, that makes Rush stand out from other bands for me. Geddy's singing has always been their weakest ingredient and generally the biggest turn off for the band's detractors.
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Padraic
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Posted: November 13 2014 at 15:27 |
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I didn't think Rush centered around any of the three. They always brought something to the table in equal measure in my mind.
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rushfan4
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Posted: November 13 2014 at 15:23 |
micky wrote:
crimhead wrote:
I go with Greg Lake everytime over Geddy Lee when it comes to vocals. No question that Geddy is the better bass player. ELP for me on this one. |
really? Funny, there are any number of pieces ELP did that FAR exceed anything Rush everdid in metric and compositional complexity.
Greg Lake is at worst the equal of Geddy. The mistake people make is mistaking the focal point of groups sound. Rush centered around Geddy, ELP didn't around Lake.. it was Emerson.
Oh yeah. Keep up the votes people!
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Ouch!  And also, I always thought that Rush centered around Neil Peart.
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Rick Robson
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Joined: September 03 2013
Location: Rio de Janeiro
Status: Offline
Points: 1607
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Posted: November 13 2014 at 15:07 |
^Not everybody thinks this way, there are some pretty good later ELP stuff that this year I listen to much more than classic Camel's, Changing States and Romeo and Juliet (both from Black Moon-1992) just to name a few, well of course not considering their groundbreaking live concerts 
Edited by Rick Robson - November 13 2014 at 16:11
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 "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB
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Meltdowner
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Joined: June 25 2013
Location: Portugal
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Points: 10215
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Posted: November 13 2014 at 13:10 |
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Raff
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Joined: July 29 2005
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Points: 24392
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Posted: November 13 2014 at 04:51 |
richardh wrote:
I actually love the power side of Genesis more than the nice pretty music made by a bunch of arty types fresh out of public school.
I just ordered a bunch of Le Orme albums which should alleviate my lack of RPI nutrition
Have you heard any Gerard? I would recommend the album Live In Marseilles. Its a constant onslaught with organ firmly to the front. Love it. |
I will answer on behalf of my better half, who is still asleep . Yes, we do have that Gerard album, and the other day we were listening to the other one we have - a sumptuous tribute to great keyboard tracks titled Keyboard Triangle. As to RPI, there have been a bunch of great new releases in the past couple of years, by both old and new bands. If you love keyboards, I would recommend getting both Il Tempio delle Clessidre's albums. The keyboardist (and main composer) in question is a very talented and beautiful young lady by the name of Elisa Montaldo. Great stuff!
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26471
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Posted: November 13 2014 at 01:51 |
micky wrote:
richardh wrote:
micky wrote:
hear hear! Well said.
There is a difference between the two. Look no further that YS to see that. That album is amazing. Take the 3 minutes of the shear violence of The Barbarian and imagine a group making nearly an entire album (4/5) of that. Yet it was in the last one that shows the real difference between shear violence and HEAVY.
I wonder if there are any new people around who haven't heard that album. Amazing stuff Richard. There have been some great, great reviews of it, however there was always one that stuck out as the best review of it that was done on the Gnosis site. Brilliant review.
Greg Northrup
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8-November-2001
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Ys
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Il Balleto di Bronzo - Ys
Il Balleto di Bronzo's Ys is an unequivocal classic, and
stands as one of the very best albums out of Italy, and perhaps among the
finest examples of dark, heavy progressive. However, newbies to the
Italian scene might want to approach this one with caution, since it can
be tougher to get into than some of the other popular Italian works. This
was one of the first Italian albums I got, and I was frankly unprepared
for it. The pyrotechnic keyboards, thundering rhythms, the angular,
punishing guitars and the abrasive vocals made for a work that I found
initially dense and unrewarding. For an album that many have hailed as
the best progressive rock album of all time, I was a little disappointed.
Of course, I've come around by now, and certainly hold this album in high
regard as one of the jewels of Italian prog, but that personal anecdote
should serve as a caveat for those expecting to be blown away immediately,
especially if not particularly predisposed towards the more dissonant
branches of progressive rock.
Still, Ys is a complete monster. The music on here is
thundering, cacophonous and simply unrelenting in its sheer, brute force.
This also stands as one of the best keyboard-based albums of all time;
Gianni Leone employs the full range of classic keys, from Hammond, Moog
and Mellotron to piano and harpsichord, pitting them in savage, fiery
duels that will absolutely tear your head off. These are contrasted
against violent guitar riffs and surging basslines, making for a chaotic,
mindbendingly complex ride. The music is punctuated by Leone's
caterwauling operatic vocals, which are perhaps the toughest part of the
album to get into, but are eventually endearing and nothing if not
emotional. Take "Introduzione", an absolute beast of a cut that builds
from volcanic climax to climax, as Hammonds and Moog duel it out for
supremacy. Take the opening riff of "Epilogo," with its brilliant
arpeggiated theme that simply bursts at the seams with intensity. The
entire album is a series of mindblowing passages, with few spots of
respite to be found. An indispensable Italian classic, without a doubt.
Greg Northrup [September 2001] |
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I'm enjoying the Cherry Five album at this very moment and beginnng to realise I don't own nearly enough RPI. Thanks for the recommendation and I will be be placing an order. |
Oh wow. I thought you might have this. Definitely order this Richard. I want to say you will love it, you may.. you may not... but what you will do is appreciate what I do consider the greatest rock keyboard based ever done. It is an amazing listen and one of the most powerful and brutal albums I've ever heard.
If you don't have it yet, Osanna's Palepoli needs to be on your order list as well. Some may consider YS the best progressive rock album ever done, I wouldn't. Too single-mindedly brutal, beautiful in its own way, but not an album brimming with variety. For that singular honor I'd give it to Palepoli. Ever mood you want done by the modern caretakers of real musical tradition, Neopoliatans, not a bunch of English art-school kids. This album ROCKS, touches you and simply is stellar from the first note.. to the last.
Might be a nice change of pace from the Genesis albums I always see you talking about as well. 
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I actually love the power side of Genesis more than the nice pretty music made by a bunch of arty types fresh out of public school.
I just ordered a bunch of Le Orme albums which should alleviate my lack of RPI nutrition
Have you heard any Gerard? I would recommend the album Live In Marseilles. Its a constant onslaught with organ firmly to the front. Love it.
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828
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Posted: November 12 2014 at 18:46 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828
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Posted: November 12 2014 at 18:42 |
richardh wrote:
micky wrote:
hear hear! Well said.
There is a difference between the two. Look no further that YS to see that. That album is amazing. Take the 3 minutes of the shear violence of The Barbarian and imagine a group making nearly an entire album (4/5) of that. Yet it was in the last one that shows the real difference between shear violence and HEAVY.
I wonder if there are any new people around who haven't heard that album. Amazing stuff Richard. There have been some great, great reviews of it, however there was always one that stuck out as the best review of it that was done on the Gnosis site. Brilliant review.
| Greg Northrup
|
8-November-2001
|
Ys
|
|---|
Il Balleto di Bronzo - Ys
Il Balleto di Bronzo's Ys is an unequivocal classic, and
stands as one of the very best albums out of Italy, and perhaps among the
finest examples of dark, heavy progressive. However, newbies to the
Italian scene might want to approach this one with caution, since it can
be tougher to get into than some of the other popular Italian works. This
was one of the first Italian albums I got, and I was frankly unprepared
for it. The pyrotechnic keyboards, thundering rhythms, the angular,
punishing guitars and the abrasive vocals made for a work that I found
initially dense and unrewarding. For an album that many have hailed as
the best progressive rock album of all time, I was a little disappointed.
Of course, I've come around by now, and certainly hold this album in high
regard as one of the jewels of Italian prog, but that personal anecdote
should serve as a caveat for those expecting to be blown away immediately,
especially if not particularly predisposed towards the more dissonant
branches of progressive rock.
Still, Ys is a complete monster. The music on here is
thundering, cacophonous and simply unrelenting in its sheer, brute force.
This also stands as one of the best keyboard-based albums of all time;
Gianni Leone employs the full range of classic keys, from Hammond, Moog
and Mellotron to piano and harpsichord, pitting them in savage, fiery
duels that will absolutely tear your head off. These are contrasted
against violent guitar riffs and surging basslines, making for a chaotic,
mindbendingly complex ride. The music is punctuated by Leone's
caterwauling operatic vocals, which are perhaps the toughest part of the
album to get into, but are eventually endearing and nothing if not
emotional. Take "Introduzione", an absolute beast of a cut that builds
from volcanic climax to climax, as Hammonds and Moog duel it out for
supremacy. Take the opening riff of "Epilogo," with its brilliant
arpeggiated theme that simply bursts at the seams with intensity. The
entire album is a series of mindblowing passages, with few spots of
respite to be found. An indispensable Italian classic, without a doubt.
Greg Northrup [September 2001] |
|
I'm enjoying the Cherry Five album at this very moment and beginnng to realise I don't own nearly enough RPI. Thanks for the recommendation and I will be be placing an order. |
Oh wow. I thought you might have this. Definitely order this Richard. I want to say you will love it, you may.. you may not... but what you will do is appreciate what I do consider the greatest rock keyboard based ever done. It is an amazing listen and one of the most powerful and brutal albums I've ever heard. If you don't have it yet, Osanna's Palepoli needs to be on your order list as well. Some may consider YS the best progressive rock album ever done, I wouldn't. Too single-mindedly brutal, beautiful in its own way, but not an album brimming with variety. For that singular honor I'd give it to Palepoli. Ever mood you want done by the modern caretakers of real musical tradition, Neopoliatans, not a bunch of English art-school kids. This album ROCKS, touches you and simply is stellar from the first note.. to the last. Might be a nice change of pace from the Genesis albums I always see you talking about as well.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
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Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828
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Posted: November 12 2014 at 18:33 |
crimhead wrote:
I go with Greg Lake everytime over Geddy Lee when it comes to vocals. No question that Geddy is the better bass player. ELP for me on this one. |
really? Funny, there are any number of pieces ELP did that FAR exceed anything Rush everdid in metric and compositional complexity. Greg Lake is at worst the equal of Geddy. The mistake people make is mistaking the focal point of groups sound. Rush centered around Geddy, ELP didn't around Lake.. it was Emerson. Oh yeah. Keep up the votes people!
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Catcher10
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Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17747
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Posted: November 12 2014 at 14:46 |
micky wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
micky......first you have to right this abomination!!
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I can definitely take that off of your hands haha
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Ha...nah I'll keep it. It's the classical mixing that does not work for me, I don't listen to classical music, I am sure those that do find this recording palatable. I am sure it will ruffle some feathers.......
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26471
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Posted: November 12 2014 at 14:31 |
octopus-4 wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
micky......first you have to right this abomination!!
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Is Piano Concerto N.1 an abomination? or are Fanfare for the Common Man and Pirates ? Well, there's some rubbish effectively, but the whole is not an abomination for sure... |
There isn't any rubbish on that album. I will happily admit I love (yes love!) Closer To Believing. Lake's side is much maligned but the no One , Three and Five tracks are excellent. Ok C'est La Vie is a bit of a snooze fest and No One Love You Like I Do is bit lame but has a nice feel all the same. Carl Palmer's side has some interesting fusion stuff and I do like the version of Tank with orchestra.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26471
|
Posted: November 12 2014 at 14:26 |
micky wrote:
hear hear! Well said.
There is a difference between the two. Look no further that YS to see that. That album is amazing. Take the 3 minutes of the shear violence of The Barbarian and imagine a group making nearly an entire album (4/5) of that. Yet it was in the last one that shows the real difference between shear violence and HEAVY.
I wonder if there are any new people around who haven't heard that album. Amazing stuff Richard. There have been some great, great reviews of it, however there was always one that stuck out as the best review of it that was done on the Gnosis site. Brilliant review.
| Greg Northrup
|
8-November-2001
|
Ys
|
|---|
Il Balleto di Bronzo - Ys
Il Balleto di Bronzo's Ys is an unequivocal classic, and
stands as one of the very best albums out of Italy, and perhaps among the
finest examples of dark, heavy progressive. However, newbies to the
Italian scene might want to approach this one with caution, since it can
be tougher to get into than some of the other popular Italian works. This
was one of the first Italian albums I got, and I was frankly unprepared
for it. The pyrotechnic keyboards, thundering rhythms, the angular,
punishing guitars and the abrasive vocals made for a work that I found
initially dense and unrewarding. For an album that many have hailed as
the best progressive rock album of all time, I was a little disappointed.
Of course, I've come around by now, and certainly hold this album in high
regard as one of the jewels of Italian prog, but that personal anecdote
should serve as a caveat for those expecting to be blown away immediately,
especially if not particularly predisposed towards the more dissonant
branches of progressive rock.
Still, Ys is a complete monster. The music on here is
thundering, cacophonous and simply unrelenting in its sheer, brute force.
This also stands as one of the best keyboard-based albums of all time;
Gianni Leone employs the full range of classic keys, from Hammond, Moog
and Mellotron to piano and harpsichord, pitting them in savage, fiery
duels that will absolutely tear your head off. These are contrasted
against violent guitar riffs and surging basslines, making for a chaotic,
mindbendingly complex ride. The music is punctuated by Leone's
caterwauling operatic vocals, which are perhaps the toughest part of the
album to get into, but are eventually endearing and nothing if not
emotional. Take "Introduzione", an absolute beast of a cut that builds
from volcanic climax to climax, as Hammonds and Moog duel it out for
supremacy. Take the opening riff of "Epilogo," with its brilliant
arpeggiated theme that simply bursts at the seams with intensity. The
entire album is a series of mindblowing passages, with few spots of
respite to be found. An indispensable Italian classic, without a doubt.
Greg Northrup [September 2001] |
|
I'm enjoying the Cherry Five album at this very moment and beginnng to realise I don't own nearly enough RPI. Thanks for the recommendation and I will be be placing an order.
|
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crimhead
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VIP Member
Joined: October 10 2006
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 19236
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Posted: November 12 2014 at 14:23 |
I go with Greg Lake everytime over Geddy Lee when it comes to vocals. No question that Geddy is the better bass player. ELP for me on this one.
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Rick Robson
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 03 2013
Location: Rio de Janeiro
Status: Offline
Points: 1607
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Posted: November 12 2014 at 07:37 |
octopus-4 wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
micky......first you have to right this abomination!!
|
Is Piano Concerto N.1 an abomination? or are Fanfare for the Common Man and Pirates ? Well, there's some rubbish effectively, but the whole is not an abomination for sure... |
Unfortunately this hatre/love 'polarization' will forever bend to the negative pole, though things would have been different if they had a more jazz/rock merged music rather than classical. Wonderful call anyways Octopus!
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"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB
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A Rush Song VS An ELP Song
!!!!!!
