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Terry Kath vs Frank Zappa |
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Sacro_Porgo ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: September 27 2021 at 21:56 |
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This is an excellent description of Kath's playing. I also love his rhythm work, because it's just so forceful. He creates an amount of thrust just strumming chords that usually only drummers can provide.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Sacro_Porgo ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
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I'm happy this wasn't a total blowout. I know the answer would be Zappa every time in a strictly Chicago vs. Zappa poll, but Kath vs. Zappa just on the merits of their guitar playing I had hope might be a fairer fight, and it seems I was right.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Progosopher ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 12 2009 Location: Coolwood Status: Offline Points: 6472 |
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As a guitar player, it's Zappa. But I prefer to listen to Chicago, mostly their earlier music.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Rednight ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 18 2014 Location: Mar Vista, CA Status: Offline Points: 4812 |
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Kath for his spur-of-the-moment fluidity.
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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
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Manuel ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 09 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13481 |
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Frank Zappa, one of the best guitarist I’ve known.
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iluvmarillion ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 09 2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 3247 |
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Terry Kath as a guitar player but in every other department Frank Zappa.
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Sacro_Porgo ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
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That's not what I'm disputing. He didn't play how Charlie Parker played. He played like himself. If Mozart's improv sounded anything close to be bop or ever involved a blues lick or a swung feel I will be fully flabbergasted.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10732 |
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^ Actually Mozart was known to be an extremely talented improviser.
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Sacro_Porgo ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
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I disagree and here's why. Parker couldn't compose anything like Mozart, and similarly Mozart couldn't improvise anything like Parker. To be a genius you don't have to be able to do everything, and certainly you shouldn't be expected to better the masters of the styles that preceded yours. Parker could compose, yes, but he composed like himself. Confirmation doesn't sound like anything Mozart would've written. Also, Mozart could improvise, but I would be absolutely astonished if his improv sounded anything like Charlie Parker soloing on Now's The Time. Yet history looks at both of them as geniuses, so clearly you don't have to be able to do everything every genius who came before or after you did to earn the title. I share the opinion that Zappa was a musical genius, and he proved it in the way many rock and roll geniuses proved it: masterfully pushing the boundaries of the music he played. He didn't have to improvise as well as John Coltrane (and honestly, who can?) because he was Frank Zappa and he had his own inimitable approach.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10732 |
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Re T Cat: Yes I've listened to my share of Frank, and I also own a lot of albums by Boulez and Varese, and really those two go a little deeper.
As for knowing my theory and composition, thats what my graduate degree is in and thats how I make my living, teaching theory and such. If you like Frank, thats cool, there are some things I like here and there too. |
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suitkees ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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I can only wholeheartedly agree with this. For me FZ is maybe the Salvador Dali of music: not necessarily the best but definitely a genius in his art.
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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TCat ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 07 2010 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 11612 |
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I agree with you about "Hot Rats", but it is just one of the many examples of FZ's improvisational and compositional skills. If you haven't heard his jazz or classical compositions, then you are missing out on a lot of what Frank was all about. His improv skills probably stand out the most in his work, but his compositional skills really shine in the London Symphony albums, in "Boulez Conducts Zappa: The Perfect Stranger", in "Civilization Phaze III", "Feeding the Monkies at Ma Maison", "Dance Me This", and so on. Any one with ties to music history, theory or composition will be able to hear this, and anyone that really knows his music will also know this and his love of music by Varèse Recommended site if you want to know more about Frank's serious side: Here are two versions of Dupree's Paradise: With orchestra: With his band: Edited by TCat - September 23 2021 at 14:49 |
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dwill123 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: December 19 2006 Status: Offline Points: 4460 |
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Most of the time when Kath's name is mentioned it's usually for his solo on '25 or 6 to 4'. As solos go it's almost as good as it gets but I prefer his solo on 'Sing a Mean Tune, Kid' (Chicago III). It's a long song so if you want to skip to where he starts playing guitar go to 4:20. Her plays from there to the end.
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Progmind ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 29 2010 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 3458 |
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The answer is yes to both questions and you can see it on the album "Hot Rats". the year 1969 was very important for rock history, like King Crimson and Miles Davis, on the album "Hot Rats" Frank Zappa generates a paradigmatic musical work, this album (together with "In A Silent Way") generated the fussion between jazz and rock and the influence it generated from this work in the musical field is immense, it´s a journey full of emotions condensed in 38 minutes. |
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10732 |
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Edited by Easy Money - September 23 2021 at 11:49 |
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TCat ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 07 2010 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 11612 |
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As much as I respect Terry Kath (especially in the early years of Chicago, up to Chicago XI), I have to say it is hard for anyone to beat FZ as both guitarist and all around musician, at least in my book. People use the word genius a bit too liberally, but if anyone deserved to be called a musical genius, it is Zappa.
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SuperMetro ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: April 17 2021 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 675 |
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[/QUOTE]Are you the poll police? So instead of voting, you choose to insult Paul AGAIN? Get a grip man. Your self-righteousness irritates me so please stop. [/QUOTE]
Well, all he said was that Kath did not write those songs, but maybe that user is talking about his guitar work in those songs.
Edited by SuperMetro - September 23 2021 at 09:39 |
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 46443 |
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How am I insulting Paul? Are you serious? We cannot disagree to what someone says anymore? Me, self-righteous? Thank you for the insult. If you really have a problem with me, please PM me, we can work things out. |
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 46443 |
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I never said anything about your choice, your comment made no sense.
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Grumpyprogfan ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 09 2019 Location: Kansas City Status: Offline Points: 12753 |
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