Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Polls
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Terry Kath vs Frank Zappa
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Terry Kath vs Frank Zappa

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Poll Question: who's your preferred guitarist?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
10 [28.57%]
25 [71.43%]
You can not vote in this poll

Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
Sacro_Porgo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 15 2019
Location: Cygnus
Status: Offline
Points: 2062
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Terry Kath vs Frank Zappa
    Posted: September 27 2021 at 21:56
Originally posted by Rednight Rednight wrote:

Kath for his spur-of-the-moment fluidity.

This is an excellent description of Kath's playing. I also love his rhythm work, because it's just so forceful. He creates an amount of thrust just strumming chords that usually only drummers can provide.
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
Back to Top
Sacro_Porgo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 15 2019
Location: Cygnus
Status: Offline
Points: 2062
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2021 at 21:54
I'm happy this wasn't a total blowout. I know the answer would be Zappa every time in a strictly Chicago vs. Zappa poll, but Kath vs. Zappa just on the merits of their guitar playing I had hope might be a fairer fight, and it seems I was right.


Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
Back to Top
Progosopher View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
Status: Offline
Points: 6472
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2021 at 11:49
As a guitar player, it's Zappa. But I prefer to listen to Chicago, mostly their earlier music.
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
Back to Top
Rednight View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 18 2014
Location: Mar Vista, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 4812
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rednight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2021 at 13:06
Kath for his spur-of-the-moment fluidity.
"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
Back to Top
Manuel View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 13481
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2021 at 08:34
Frank Zappa, one of the best guitarist I’ve known. 
Back to Top
iluvmarillion View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 09 2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 3247
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluvmarillion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2021 at 00:11
Terry Kath as a guitar player but in every other department Frank Zappa.
Back to Top
Sacro_Porgo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 15 2019
Location: Cygnus
Status: Offline
Points: 2062
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2021 at 21:30
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Actually Mozart was known to be an extremely talented improviser.

That's not what I'm disputing. He didn't play how Charlie Parker played. He played like himself.  If Mozart's improv sounded anything close to be bop or ever involved a blues lick or a swung feel I will be fully flabbergasted. 
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
Back to Top
Easy Money View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10732
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2021 at 21:15
^ Actually Mozart was known to be an extremely talented improviser.
Back to Top
Sacro_Porgo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 15 2019
Location: Cygnus
Status: Offline
Points: 2062
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2021 at 17:14
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by TCat TCat wrote:

As much as I respect Terry Kath (especially in the early years of Chicago, up to Chicago XI), I have to say it is hard for anyone to beat FZ as both guitarist and all around musician, at least in my book.  People use the word genius a bit too liberally, but if anyone deserved to be called a musical genius, it is Zappa.
Within the world of rock maybe, but not in the larger world of music in general. Can he improvise like Dolphy, Coltrane or Parker? Can he compose like Schoenberg, Stravinsky or Mozart? Frank himself would probably be the first to admit he is not in that league.

I disagree and here's why. Parker couldn't compose anything like Mozart, and similarly Mozart couldn't improvise anything like Parker.  To be a genius you don't have to be able to do everything, and certainly you shouldn't be expected to better the masters of the styles that preceded yours.  Parker could compose, yes, but he composed like himself.  Confirmation doesn't sound like anything Mozart would've written.  Also, Mozart could improvise, but I would be absolutely astonished if his improv sounded anything like Charlie Parker soloing on Now's The Time.  Yet history looks at both of them as geniuses, so clearly you don't have to be able to do everything every genius who came before or after you did to earn the title. I share the opinion that Zappa was a musical genius, and he proved it in the way many rock and roll geniuses proved it: masterfully pushing the boundaries of the music he played. He didn't have to improvise as well as John Coltrane (and honestly, who can?) because he was Frank Zappa and he had his own inimitable approach.
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
Back to Top
Easy Money View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10732
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2021 at 16:52
Re T Cat: Yes I've listened to my share of Frank, and I also own a lot of albums by Boulez and Varese, and really those two go a little deeper.
As for knowing my theory and composition, thats what my graduate degree is in and thats how I make my living, teaching theory and such.
If you like Frank, thats cool, there are some things I like here and there too.
Back to Top
suitkees View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 19 2020
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 9050
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2021 at 15:13
Originally posted by TCat TCat wrote:

I agree with you about "Hot Rats", but it is just one of the many examples of FZ's improvisational and compositional skills.  If you haven't heard his jazz or classical compositions, then you are missing out on a lot of what Frank was all about.  His improv skills probably stand out the most in his work, but his compositional skills really shine in the London Symphony albums, in "Boulez Conducts Zappa: The Perfect Stranger", in "Civilization Phaze III", "Feeding the Monkies at Ma Maison", "Dance Me This", and so on.  Any one with ties to music history, theory or composition will be able to hear this, and anyone that really knows his music will also know this and his love of music by Varèse.

I can only wholeheartedly agree with this. For me FZ is maybe the Salvador Dali of music: not necessarily the best but definitely a genius in his art.

The razamataz is a pain in the bum
Back to Top
TCat View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: February 07 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 11612
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2021 at 14:34
Originally posted by Progmind Progmind wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by TCat TCat wrote:

As much as I respect Terry Kath (especially in the early years of Chicago, up to Chicago XI), I have to say it is hard for anyone to beat FZ as both guitarist and all around musician, at least in my book.  People use the word genius a bit too liberally, but if anyone deserved to be called a musical genius, it is Zappa.
Within the world of rock maybe, but not in the larger world of music in general. Can he improvise like Dolphy, Coltrane or Parker? Can he compose like Schoenberg, Stravinsky or Mozart?

The answer is yes to both questions and you can see it on the album "Hot Rats".

the year 1969 was very important  for rock history, like King Crimson and Miles Davis, on the album "Hot Rats" Frank Zappa generates a paradigmatic musical work, this album (together with "In A Silent Way") generated the fussion between jazz and rock and the influence it generated from this work in the musical field is immense, it´s a journey full of emotions condensed in 38 minutes.



 
 I agree with you about "Hot Rats", but it is just one of the many examples of FZ's improvisational and compositional skills.  If you haven't heard his jazz or classical compositions, then you are missing out on a lot of what Frank was all about.  His improv skills probably stand out the most in his work, but his compositional skills really shine in the London Symphony albums, in "Boulez Conducts Zappa: The Perfect Stranger", in "Civilization Phaze III", "Feeding the Monkies at Ma Maison", "Dance Me This", and so on.  Any one with ties to music history, theory or composition will be able to hear this, and anyone that really knows his music will also know this and his love of music by Varèse

Recommended site if you want to know more about Frank's serious side:

Here are two versions of Dupree's Paradise:

With orchestra:



With his band:






Edited by TCat - September 23 2021 at 14:49

Back to Top
dwill123 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 19 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 4460
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dwill123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2021 at 12:47
Most of the time when Kath's name is mentioned it's usually for his solo on '25 or 6 to 4'.  As solos go it's almost as good as it gets but I prefer his solo on 'Sing a Mean Tune, Kid' (Chicago III).  It's a long song so if you want to skip to where he starts playing guitar go to 4:20.  Her plays from there to the end.


Back to Top
Progmind View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 29 2010
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 3458
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2021 at 11:53
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by TCat TCat wrote:

As much as I respect Terry Kath (especially in the early years of Chicago, up to Chicago XI), I have to say it is hard for anyone to beat FZ as both guitarist and all around musician, at least in my book.  People use the word genius a bit too liberally, but if anyone deserved to be called a musical genius, it is Zappa.
Within the world of rock maybe, but not in the larger world of music in general. Can he improvise like Dolphy, Coltrane or Parker? Can he compose like Schoenberg, Stravinsky or Mozart?

The answer is yes to both questions and you can see it on the album "Hot Rats".

the year 1969 was very important  for rock history, like King Crimson and Miles Davis, on the album "Hot Rats" Frank Zappa generates a paradigmatic musical work, this album (together with "In A Silent Way") generated the fussion between jazz and rock and the influence it generated from this work in the musical field is immense, it´s a journey full of emotions condensed in 38 minutes.


Back to Top
Easy Money View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10732
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2021 at 11:34
Originally posted by TCat TCat wrote:

As much as I respect Terry Kath (especially in the early years of Chicago, up to Chicago XI), I have to say it is hard for anyone to beat FZ as both guitarist and all around musician, at least in my book.  People use the word genius a bit too liberally, but if anyone deserved to be called a musical genius, it is Zappa.
Within the world of rock maybe, but not in the larger world of music in general. Can he improvise like Dolphy, Coltrane or Parker? Can he compose like Schoenberg, Stravinsky or Mozart? Frank himself would probably be the first to admit he is not in that league.

Edited by Easy Money - September 23 2021 at 11:49
Back to Top
TCat View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: February 07 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 11612
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2021 at 11:16
As much as I respect Terry Kath (especially in the early years of Chicago, up to Chicago XI), I have to say it is hard for anyone to beat FZ as both guitarist and all around musician, at least in my book.  People use the word genius a bit too liberally, but if anyone deserved to be called a musical genius, it is Zappa.

Back to Top
SuperMetro View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: April 17 2021
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 675
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperMetro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2021 at 09:37
[/QUOTE]Are you the poll police? So instead of voting, you choose to insult Paul AGAIN? Get a grip man. Your self-righteousness irritates me so please stop. [/QUOTE]

Well, all he said was that Kath did not write those songs, but maybe that user is talking about his guitar work in those songs. 


Edited by SuperMetro - September 23 2021 at 09:39
Back to Top
Cristi View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams

Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Offline
Points: 46443
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2021 at 09:31
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

If You Leave Me Now with just two choices, then Chicago wins easily. After all,  they're a Hard Habit to Break.
 
Admittedly, I've never been a fan of Frank Zappa, but You Are What You Is. Smile

Cetera wrote both songs you mentioned there. Poll's about Terry Kath. At least make a judgement on songs Kath wrote... 
Are you the poll police? So instead of voting, you choose to insult Paul AGAIN? Get a grip man. Your self-righteousness irritates me so please stop. 

How am I insulting Paul? Are you serious? We cannot disagree to what someone says anymore? 

Me, self-righteous? Thank you for the insult.

If you really have a problem with me, please PM me, we can work things out. 




Back to Top
Cristi View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams

Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Offline
Points: 46443
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2021 at 09:27
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

If You Leave Me Now with just two choices, then Chicago wins easily. After all,  they're a Hard Habit to Break.
 
Admittedly, I've never been a fan of Frank Zappa, but You Are What You Is. Smile

Cetera wrote both songs you mentioned there. Poll's about Terry Kath. At least make a judgement on songs Kath wrote... 
Baby, What a Big Surprise that you don't like my poll choice, but It's Hard to Say I'm Sorry. Tongue

I never said anything about your choice, your comment made no sense. 
Back to Top
Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 09 2019
Location: Kansas City
Status: Offline
Points: 12753
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2021 at 08:30
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

If You Leave Me Now with just two choices, then Chicago wins easily. After all,  they're a Hard Habit to Break.
 
Admittedly, I've never been a fan of Frank Zappa, but You Are What You Is. Smile

Cetera wrote both songs you mentioned there. Poll's about Terry Kath. At least make a judgement on songs Kath wrote... 
Are you the poll police? So instead of voting, you choose to insult Paul AGAIN? Get a grip man. Your self-righteousness irritates me so please stop. 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.133 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.