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Big Ears 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 08 2005
Location: Hants, England
Status: Offline
Points: 727
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 Topic: "Filler" tracks on prog albums
Posted: May 05 2006 at 06:44 |
Are You Ready Eddie on Tarkus by ELP is not a filler. Seamus on Meddle by Pink Floyd is a filler. It wastes space on an otherwise great, but already very short, album. Everything but the title track on Open Your Eyes by Yes is a filler.
Fillers are a way of padding out albums to meet contractual deadlines, rather than considering the fans.
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Sean Trane
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Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19703
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Posted: May 05 2006 at 03:59 |
 Losendos wrote:
In my opinion filler is used too readily. A band may make a piece that seems musically less inspired for other reasons than just to fill up space.
For example
Silent sorrow in Empty Boats has atmospherics. >> see below
Are you ready Eddy ? leaves a light feeling after a heavy album. I like this track and think it finished nicely an outstanding album >> already answered that >> A joke to eddie Offord I believe
The Clap showcases an individual's talents in between the more soild group effort. Listening to several talented people performing at once can be tiring. >> those five individual pieces are not fillers >> they are part of a concept
I'm not sure the ideal 40 minute album would contain several talented musicians playing complex pieces with exquisite melodies in epic tracks.
For that reason I prefer albums like Fragile to albums like Tales from Topographic Ocean  . The latter is a hard listen.>> almost obtuse |
About the debate of Lamb lies down which is overlong (a debate regularly coming back on the forum) , the real material is almost three sides of vinyl, but not material enough to market, therefore time must be found >> this debate is not a figment of my imagination either
Lamb Lies Down
Disc 1 time: 45:34
1. The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (4:50) >> debatable but useless intro >> overlong, simple partly a filler >< second choice material anyway
2. Fly on a Windshield (4:23)>> core material
3. Broadway Melody of 1974 (0:33) >> Core Material
4. Cuckoo Cocoon (2:11)>> core material
5. In the Cage (8:15) >> central piece of first disc
6. The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging (2:45) >> core material
7. Back in N.Y.C. (5:42) >> weaker but still quite central >> second choice material
8. Hairless Heart (2:13) >> core material
9. Counting Out Time (3:42) >> core material
10. The Carpet Crawlers (5:15) >> even if commercial >> core material
11. The Chamber of 32 Doors (5:40) >> core material
Disc 2 time: 48:49
1. Lillywhite Lilith (2:42)>> weaker >> second choice material
2. The Waiting Room (5:24) >> debatable but I think a filler , but a good one
3. Anyway (3:07)>> core material
4. The Supernatural Anaesthetist (2:59) >> filler >> allows Gabriel to get into his suit
5. The Lamia (6:57) >> core material >> central piece of disc 2
6. Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats (3:07) >> filler >> allows Gabriel to get out of his suit
7. Colony of Slippermen (8:13) >> core material >> second central piece of disc 2
8. Ravine (2:04) >> second choice material >> not far from a filler
9. The Light Dies Down on Broadway (3:32) >> logical outro , the story should end here but clearly the cojncept needed further chapters
10. Riding the Scree (3:57) >> Filler >> not really that much of a filler, but it has the feel because it is too long and is more of second choice material
11. In the Rapids (2:26)>> filler >> not really that much of a filler, but it has the feel because it is too long and is more of second choice material
12. It. (4:15) >> filler>> not really that much of a filler, but it has the feel because it is too long and is more of second choice material
Total Time 94:23 >> keeping the green tracks would've made one single almost perfect album
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
Seamus is almso an excellent of a filler track
On the other hand, TFK is filling abums with fillers  
Edited by Sean Trane - May 05 2006 at 08:23
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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____VdGG____
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 10 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 156
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Posted: May 05 2006 at 02:18 |
The end of The Mincer always pissed the f#$K out of me! I always thought my CD was scratched or that something was wrong with it... I agree sort of with your opinions on the rest of SABB, crimson, but not with Providence  . It's my second favoite on the album (behind One More Red Nightmare)
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Iron throated monsters are forcing the screams;
Mind and machinery box-press our dreams
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Losendos
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 03 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 571
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 22:06 |
In my opinion filler is used too readily. A band may make a piece that seems musically less inspired for other reasons than just to fill up space.
For example
For Absent Friends contrasts between two epic tracks.
Silent sorrow in Empty Boats has atmospherics.
Are you ready Eddy ? leaves a light feeling after a heavy album. I like this track and think it finished nicely an outstanding album
The Clap showcases an individual's talents in between the more soild group effort. Listening to several talented people performing at once can be tiring.
I'm not sure the ideal 40 minute album would contain several talented musicians playing complex pieces with exquisite melodies in epic tracks.
For that reason I prefer albums like Fragile to albums like Tales from Topographic Ocean . The latter is a hard listen.
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How wonderful to be so profound
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crimson thing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 28 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 848
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 19:30 |
Despite being a diehard fan, Id reckon KC to be one of the worst bands for inflicting "fillers" on the audience.
"Providence" from "Red" - half of you will probably agree with this, half think its a genius improv.
Somewhat more contentious - there are several tracks (IMHO) on "Starless & BB" not worth the candle. The band couldnt be a**ed to clean up & finish "The Mincer" - very lazy - & the tracks "The Great Deceiver", "We'll let you know" & "S&BB" itself all need polishing. Could have been a great album, with more work.
And "Thrak" - what the f++k is "Radio I", "Radio II", "Inner Garden I" & "Inner Garden II" all about? If theyre not filler I'll eat my entire CD collection. They're not even worthy of being bonus tracks on the "Robert Fripp - scraping the barrel - worst of the outtakes" CD (volume 6).
Boy do we progheads have to eat some crap with our caviar....
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 20627
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 18:07 |
Dirk wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
I just read a review of Tool - 10,000 Days ... the reviewer complained about two tracks that he called "filler": Lipan Conjuring and Viginti Tres.
My problem with that is: The album has a play time of 77 minutes! Even if one doesn't like these tracks, I don't think that they should be taken into account when determining a rating for the album. IMO it's just additional content that shouldn't affect the rating - wouldn't it be awkward if the album was rated higher if they had left out these tracks? |
That's an interesting statement. Does this mean that a record like Flower Power from TFK should
get a 5 star rating just because Garden of dreams is 60 minutes of 5 star music?. I would certainly
like that but i think it's against rating policy on this site.
Also on your own site it couldn't be done because all the tracks have to be rated before you get a
visible album rating. This also goes for the Tool example, you have to rate these "bonus" tracks if they
are not officially bonus.
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I could simply mark these tracks as "bonus", as simple as that.
But I will not do that for the Tool album, the tracks don't meet the criteria that I posted above.
Candidates for what I mean are:
- Devin Townsend - Terria - "Outtake"
- The Flower Kings - Flower Power - "IKEA by Night"
Can't really think of any other albums right now. 
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akin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 976
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 18:05 |
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Ok, Outtakes and bonus from release versions I usually don't reveiw
because in first place most of my collection is from vinyl, so no
bonus. And in second place, when there is a bonus/outtake, usually
there is a version that doesn't include these bonus, so it isn't fair.
This outtakes/bonus are commonly released to aggregate value to the new
cd versions, but they are not part of the album (for example, Deep
Purple's Fireball has 7 songs on the original release and 16 on the
deluxe edition on cd. I reviewed only 7 because this is the way my
record is).
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Dirk
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Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 1043
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 18:01 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
I just read a review of Tool - 10,000 Days ... the reviewer complained about two tracks that he called "filler": Lipan Conjuring and Viginti Tres.
My problem with that is: The album has a play time of 77 minutes! Even if one doesn't like these tracks, I don't think that they should be taken into account when determining a rating for the album. IMO it's just additional content that shouldn't affect the rating - wouldn't it be awkward if the album was rated higher if they had left out these tracks? |
That's an interesting statement. Does this mean that a record like Flower Power from TFK should get a 5 star rating just because Garden of dreams is 60 minutes of 5 star music?. I would certainly like that but i think it's against rating policy on this site. Also on your own site it couldn't be done because all the tracks have to be rated before you get a visible album rating. This also goes for the Tool example, you have to rate these "bonus" tracks if they are not officially bonus.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 20627
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 17:48 |
akin: I wasn't complaining about the review - people have their own concept of rating, nothing wrong with that.
I will only enforce this on my website, and also only with very few albums where it makes sense:
- the track must be an obvious outtake/bonus
- the playtime must be longer than 50 minutes without the track
People can still rate the track, but it will not be used to compute the album average.
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akin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 976
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 17:42 |
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My previous post didn't appear because there was a problem, but to
resume what I would comment, sorry, Mike, but I disagree with your
complains because we cannot simply forget that there are some songs not
so good in the album. Them some will argue that an album with 4
fantastic songs and 5 not so good can be a masterpiece. To the person
that made the review, these songs are enough to justify a lower rating,
mostly because he is not so pleased with the new Tool album than you.
The same example goes to the Devin Townsend mentioned work. Maybe to
some that song can make difference. It is a matter of taste, so let's
give him the freedom to rate the way he want. Since he explained his
reasons, there is nothing wrong with his opinion.
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hawkbrock
Forum Groupie
Joined: January 04 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 96
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 16:39 |
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Any Colour you Like. Scum track.
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Chris_Kemp
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 113
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 16:29 |
Filler tracks (they do exist and great albums don't have them):
Acquiring the Taste on Acquiring the Taste
Sentimental Institution on Defector
Ring on Circus (by Argent)
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"That's not your face...it's mine! IT'S MINE!!
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man@arms
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 31 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 238
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 15:30 |
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I think a 77 minute cd is a bit overlong for my personal listening experience. I agree with the earlier statements saying 40 minutes is more ideal. Just because a cd can hold 80 minutes of material doesn't mean the artist should feel obligated to fill the disc to capacity. Rick Wakeman has said that Yes had to noodle around while recording Topographic Oceans so that each song would fill the entire side on an lp. While I happen to love Topographic a great deal, I can see where a bit of editing would have helped the album. Same goes for the White Album, Tommy, Electric Ladyland, The Lamb and several other double albums. When the 33rpm became available in the 50's, it was the great jazz artists of that era that were the first to truly allow themselves to stretch out and play a bit longer, something that they could not do with the old 78's. So, with new technology and new formats come artists willing to utilize the extra available space to varying degrees of success.
Edited by man@arms - May 04 2006 at 15:31
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VanBuren
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Joined: October 27 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 83
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 12:55 |
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Who really cares if its 40 minutes or 77. And who are these
people say what's "filler" I really doubt the guys in tool said,
"sh*t, this isn't long enough, lets add some crap to it."
perhaps they put these "filler" tracks in because they liked them, or
maybe just so they could be criticized on the internet about stupid
little insignificant things aspects of their album. If we're
gonna bitch about filler, why not start with something that has a lot
of it, not two little tracks. I mean have any of you heard
Frances the Mute, that's an album with filler. Tool albums have
more of transitions.
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Firepuck
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 28 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 657
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 12:49 |
^
Mike, first off I visit your site regularily and find it well laid out and informative. I will certainly end up joining sooner or later (it took me over a year of navagating this site before I became a member so give me time). I like the format of rating each song independently, great value in that when exploring new groups (I mean groups I haven't really listened to before). Kudo's to you for taking the time on this site and your site to help make them as good as they are.
But in this I strongly disagree with you. I will always think that the album should be rated as a whole. Outakes, fillers, everything. There are many albums I like and play often that have songs that I don't find all that good. Does this make the album less worthy of a high rating? - ABSOLUTELY
To me there are few albums that are strong from start to finish and these are the real jewels of progressive rock.
Mind you, this is just my opinion. With respect to Terria you can rate it however you see fit.
For example:
GENESIS — Archive - Volume 1: 1967-1975
While I would highly recommend this box set to any early Genesis fan I would never give this a 5 star rating because of CD4. CD's 1, 2 and 3 however are gorgeous.
IMHO...
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Kryten : "'Pub'? Ah yes, A meeting place where humans attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
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MegaMoog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 112
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 12:45 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Tarkus
1. Tarkus: Eruption (2:44) Stones Of Years (3:44) Iconoclast (1:16) Mass (3:12) Manticore (1:52) Battlefield (3:51) Aquatarkus (4:04) >>> Tarkus is a core track of the album
2. Jeremy Bender (1:51) >> a tyical ragtime piece , a facet of ELP>> not my cup of tea3. Bitches Crystal (3:58) >> second choice material>> still worthy
4. The Only Way (Hymn)(3:49) >>> Classical rework >> core material of the album Toccata in F and Prelude VI (themes used in intro and bridge only)composed by: Bach 5. Infinite Space (Conclusion)(3:20) >> cannot really remember it but likely linked to previous track
6. A Time And A Place (3:02) >> second choice material>> still worthy
7. Are You Ready Eddy? (2:10) >> nothing to do with ELP, a throwaway piece >> a filler |
you know my brother and I listin to the album in the car and both agreed that Are you ready Eddy? was the best case of a filler ever used that we could think of
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Where Can I Get A Moog biscuit?  
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OldFatherThames
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 02 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 317
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 12:39 |
ThisWas wrote:
filler is just a word for a song on an album people dont like
ie: For Absent Friends on Nursery Cryme
people say it doesnt flow with the album, but then again, does every prog album have to have continuity to constitute being a prog album? if you look at say led zeppelin, or the beatles, its all filler if you look at it from that perspective
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Totally disagree. I love that song and I think it goes very well in the album. Imagine that after The musical box, return of the giant hogweeg begin....I think something would miss....
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19703
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 12:36 |
--------------- edited by ST
Edited by Sean Trane - May 05 2006 at 08:24
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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bctruce
Forum Groupie
Joined: June 08 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 79
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 12:31 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
I just read a review of Tool - 10,000 Days ... the reviewer complained about two tracks that he called "filler": Lipan Conjuring and Viginti Tres. |
I saw that review and had similar thoughts. The problems I have are: "Lipan Conjuring" is a little over a minute, so why should it really matter? It's a little interlude, and much less annoying / lengthy than Tool's previous "filler" tracks -- see (-) ions from Ænima. "Lost Keys" is (to me) an awesome mood piece and highly effective setup to the next track on the album. I love it and would never consider it filler. "Viginti Tres" is filler, but so what? So the guys wanted to doodle around at the end of the album and had room? Again, it's nowhere near as offensive as the unlistenable "Faaip De Oiad" from Lateralus, and even if you hate it, just stop the CD. Should be no factor at all. So in this case I couldn't possibly see "filler" material as being a problem. Plenty of other albums just have bad songwriting, and I'd consider that filler
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Snow Dog
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 12:19 |
Edited by SD
Edited by Snow Dog - May 05 2006 at 06:49
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"Filler" tracks on prog albums
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