Influential prog albums

ivan_2068 wrote: (But nots not what you said previously.. solid keyboard player is a long way below where Keith is) Please, don't change the sense of my words, I believe Keith and over him Rick are tecnically a step over Tony, but technique is not everything, there is team work, being a serious musician, composition, and in this fields, Tony Banks is far ahead both musicians. If I want to see a great solo show, without doubt will go to see Wakeman, if I want to see a band with a keyboardist that makes spectacular shows I'll go to see Emerson, but if I want to form a band and need a keyboardist that will play for the band and not for his own interest, I'll go with Tony Banks without doubt. Iván

Now Ivan, you're arguing with someone who's young and only knows from what he hears. He's not a Genesis fan either and actually he's just getting into ELP, he's really a huge Pink Floyd fan.

But even I have to remark on one thing... Tony Banks, altho a competent keyboardist, does not compare to Keith or Rick in composition... that I don't see at all.  And if I was starting a band where I wanted to shine.. maybe I would invite a keyboardist like Tony, but if I wanted a great  band and I didn't care who shined... I'd much rather have Keith Emerson... and he can overshadow as much as he wants.. as long as he's brilliant.

(Evidently no so well oiled or they would of been just Genesis and not early Genesis)

Early Genesis was a well oiled machine, it worked perfectly, then Peter Gabriel left and the band lost something, but when Steve Hackett left they lost two pieces from a perfect machinery.

Why don't you take the pieces of a watch and buikld it again taking the two principal piece, I'm sure it won't work, ELP also had some problems with ELPowell and that Three band without Lake.

Genesis after Hackett left was no longer Genesis, they should have changed the name to anything, because they were playing a different genre.

(But nots not what you said previously.. solid keyboard player is a long way below where Keith is)

Please, don't change the sense of my words, I believe Keith and over him Rick are tecnically a step over Tony, but technique is not everything, there is team work, being a serious musician, composition, and in this fields, Tony Banks is far ahead both musicians.

If I want to see a great solo show, without doubt will go to see Wakeman, if I want to see a band with a keyboardist that makes spectacular shows I'll go to see Emerson, but if I want to form a band and need a keyboardist that will play for the band and not for his own interest, I'll go with Tony Banks without doubt.

Iván

threefates wrote: Certif1ed wrote: Yeah, right... whatever... I think it's because Foxtrot is better musically; technically and in overall execution (although I might concede that Lake's vocals are the superior - however he loses points on lyrics). Definitely don't agree with that... the first 5 ELP albums had the best production their was.. and it well stands the test of time... Can't say that about any of the Genesis albums.. as far as production is concerned.  And Greg's lyrics were genius, now some of Pete's were funny...but still genius.. Banks simply owns Emerson - makes Keith look like a hopeful second-leaguer, and Collins is almost impossible to compare to Palmer - they're both brilliant on the two albums we're comparing. That not only made me laugh... but I could hear RichardH laughing all the way from Swindon...  Tony Banks is still praying for the day when he could even shine Emerson's boots... I will also concede that Genesis had two extra members - but would counter that by saying that it's harder to co-ordinate larger numbers of personnel. And even with the extra 2 members, the never sounded as full as ELP... /edit I have to take back one of my concessions - Greg's intonation on Brain Salad Surgery is pretty bad - especially on "Jerusalem". The tonal quality may be more pleasant, but Gabriel stays on key with more ease! Must be the perfect pitch.. cause I never heard a bad moment in Jerusalem... and the fact that it still puts chills down my back... when nothing Gabriel has ever sang did that to me... then I think you're wrong there too...

Threefates is too close to the subject matter to be objective so it is pointless even entering into discussion with her about ELP.

I don't want to start a mad rush, but how could you miss out the Soft Machine or the Mahavishnu Orchestra?

Absolutely agree with you Cert, that's why I said "And I'm missing a lot of influencial bands and points of view", if anybody would name influential bands, would have to mention of course Mahavishnu as a fusion influence, some Kraut, etc, but it would takea lot of  hours and pages.

About PFM I absolutely disagree, all italian bands have clear influence from UK bands, PFM and Banco from ELP (They even signed with Manticore I believe) Le Orme from Yes and Genesis, but all have a clear Italian sound that makes the difference. After all they were the first generation of prog' bands outside UK and of course they received influence from the pioneers of the genre.

Iván

I think we're talking about influential, not about our favorites, IMO this are a group ofvthe most influential albums:

1. In the Court of the Crimson King: Defined the genre, probably the first 100% progressive album
2. The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway: An icon of the prog' culture, redefined the term conceptual album.
3. Dark Side of the Moon: The most popular progressive album, been a long time the best selling album in progressive history
4. Close to the Edge: The peak of Yes, one of the most famous prog' bands, almost defines the term epic.
5. Trilogy: The Peak of ELP, one of the best structured bands of the genre
6. Thick as a Brick: Mixed the terms concept and Epic in one album.
7. Per un Amico: Proves good Progressive Rock albums can be released outside UK
8. Look at Yourself: IMO the first Prog' Metal album by Uriah Heep.
9. A Trick of the Tail: According to many people it defined Neo Progressive.
10. Song for America: IMO the best progressive album done in USA.

Now the second part, influential Bands in which sense and what parameters must we use?:

Proto Prog:

1. Frank Zappa
2. Arthur Brown
3. The Beatles

The big 5:

1. Genesis (Symphonic)
2. Yes (Symphonic)
3. ELP (Symphonic even when they are considered classical Prog')
4. King Crimson (A genre of their own)
5. Pink Floyd (Space/Psychodelia)

Folk Prog

1. Jethro Tull
2. The Strawbs
3. Renaissance
4. Fairport Convention

USA Prog:

1. Kansas
2. Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention
3. Pavlov's Dog
4. Glass Hammer

Neo Prog:

1. Marillion
2. Pendragon
3. IQ

Prog Metal:

1. Uriah Heep
2. Dream Theater
3. Rush

Italian Prog:

1. PFM
2. Banco del Mutuo Soccorso
3. Le Orme

Scandinavian Progressive:

1. Anglagard
2. Par Lindh Project
3. Anekdoten

Other countries:

1. Focus (Netherlands)
2. Triumvirat (Germany)
3. Rush (Canada)
4. Ange (France)

And I'm missing a lot of influencial bands and points of view.

Iván

Garion81 wrote: Totally disagree with that. DSOTM was popular sure but the most influencial?  Not likely since it came  out long after other albums of the period were already done.   I know a lot of people love Floyd here but this is just a bit over the top. Are you trying to say that looking back or that it was when it came out?

Yes, I am saying it's the most influential. And I don't think it's not over the top to say so. The existence of a raft of other prog albums previously in no way lessens the impact DSOTM had when it came out and the mark it continues to make on popular music.

Popularity is just part of the equation. If you class DSOTM as prog then it is simply THE most popular prog album ever made - now well over 30 million copies sold - this knocks the entire careers of most other bands into a cocked hat.

But sales alone do not an influence make - Nick Drake sold b***** all records on release but he has since become a major influence on a whole host of musicians.

DSOTM, however, is both popular and namechecked with startling regularity by a host of bands as a major influence on their own music-making. Like I said, from prog to metal to ambient to techno, rock to indie DSOTM has had an enormous impact.

It is that ongoing cultural relevance that makes it, in my opinion, the most influential record in not only prog, but also one of the key recordings in all of rock music - up there with Pet Sounds, Revolver/Sgt Peppers, Let it Bleed/Exile on Main Street, The Velvet Underground's first album, The Doors debut, Ziggy Stardust, Never Mind the Bollocks, Nevermind, Talking Book as one of the most important popular music recordings of the second half of the 20th century.

I love Yes, Genesis, Rush et al but their impact on rock and pop music as a whole is significantly less than Floyd's.

arcer wrote: Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon is without doubt the most influential record in prog. The mere fact that it has been in the US Top 100 since its release tells you all you need to know. It's combination of killer songwriting, involving atmospherics, approachable arrangements and universal themes of alienation, frustration, stress and dissatisfaction make it hard to resist. Other records may have been influential on some later prog rock (Yes, Genesis) but generally their relevance has been withing narrow confines. DSOTM has had an influence on music across a whole host of genres from indie to chill-out, metal to ambient, techno to post-rock. It's a no-brainer folks, Dark Side is it.

Totally disagree with that. DSOTM was popular sure but the most influencial?  Not likely since it came  out long after other albums of the period were already done.   I know a lot of people love Floyd here but this is just a bit over the top. Are you trying to say that looking back or that it was when it came out?