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jean-marie 
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 Topic: The McDonald & Giles Departure from King Crimson
Posted: October 04 2011 at 16:44 |
 Dellinger wrote:
I'm sure the second album would have been much better had they kept the original line-up. I wish it had been done so, and then they could have done the rest of their discography just as they did and I wouldn't complain. |
I think just the same as you, but it didn't happen and Fripp seems to be the only reason 
Edited by jean-marie - October 04 2011 at 16:47
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FAIS QUE TON REVE SOIT PLUS LONG QUE LA NUIT HAVE YOUR DREAM LASTING LONGER THAN THE NIGHT
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infandous
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Posted: October 04 2011 at 13:31 |
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Well, what I read (in the Epitaph box set) was that McDonald and Giles were missing their (recently married) wives, and McDonald didn't much like Fripp's guitar playing (which Fripp now says he is sympathetic to that view). He also said that McDonald, at least, has regretted leaving.
Personally, I think everything after Poseidon was excellent, and even Poseidon was pretty decent all things considered. Still, I would agree that one more album with that lineup would have been interesting to hear. I've heard the McDonald & Giles album a couple of times in the past, and it seemed pretty dull to me, not even close to the next two Crimson albums (let alone the Larks era). Giles though was one heck of a drummer.
I do think that Giles and McDonald were a little unsettled by the dark power of the band when they were in it, and at the time probably didn't realize just what a magnificent thing they were a part of. Had they stayed though, I don't think Crimson would have gone on to be the incredible prog powerhouse they were for so many years with Fripp as the captain.
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TODDLER
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Posted: October 04 2011 at 09:12 |
This was a strange heartbreaking experience for Fripp. When McDonald and Giles confronted him about their decision to leave at the end of the tour...that was the equivalent of his stomach dropping. What was he to do? Put yourself in his shoes. In the Court of the Crimson King was groundbreaking and influential to many of the solid crafty professional artists in England. Pete Townshend and Joni Mitchell as artists had a great many things to say about the work. I think Fripp was rather broken over the issue. He was given support from his fellow band members for example Michael Giles played drums on Poseidon and Lake was still determined to move on. Fripp was a little devious forcing Lake to leave Crimson as he did. Bringing in Gordon Haskell and asking Peter Giles to play bass. In the end he claimed to justify the act saying he was doing it in the best interest of Lake.
Fripp had a rare situation on his hands. With Phillip Shulman leaving Gentle Giant the tension from worry caused them to feel discouraged over In A Glass House. They were able to replace drummers just as Fripp did with Crimson and they carried on without Phillip Shulman but it wasn't that difficult to do. Fripp had to replace key members of a 4 piece unit quickly or die. Maybe Lake had not developed enough solid writing material in 1970. Fripp wrote the music for Lizard and that alone is something I would have missed if McDonald and Giles had stayed with the band.
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Dellinger
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Posted: October 03 2011 at 19:50 |
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I'm sure the second album would have been much better had they kept the original line-up. I wish it had been done so, and then they could have done the rest of their discography just as they did and I wouldn't complain.
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Wafflesyrup
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Posted: October 02 2011 at 22:19 |
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While I definitely enjoy Mcdonald's and Giles work outside of crimson, and enjoyed their time with crimson, the era of larks' tongues has been the love of my life since discovery. I personally enjoy the thematic call backs of Poseidon. Progress by Giles is a cool one. On another note Giles, Giles, and Fripp has some charming material.
Edited by Wafflesyrup - October 02 2011 at 22:23
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40footwolf
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Posted: September 27 2011 at 02:14 |
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I'm sort of thankful they left, if only because it lead to the Wetton/Bruford/Cross lineup, which I believe was not only KC's peak but the apex of progressive rock as a genre. A few mediocre albums in the interim was totally worth that.
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Heaven's made a cesspool of us all.
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TODDLER
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Posted: September 26 2011 at 08:55 |
Well.... I first heard I.T.W.O.P. at age 15 back in 1971 and to be presently in my 50's, re-visit the early years,...and discovering a great many things about the music spells out that it is timeless. Although you still have to seperate yourself from the outside world when you endulge in K.C.'s music. For example Islands. I have to be completely alone when I listen to it. I didn't want to mention a lighthouse or a beach but it's true. This is the most enjoyable experience for me. A bottle of superb wine, headphones, and Islands. You simply wipe your mind of everything negative in your life and allow the music to take over. "The Letters' annoys me a bit so I start thinking of something else like how beautiful Maggie Gyllenhaal is. The spiritual side to the music can be found in pieces like "Formentera Lady" with the hypnotic soprano of Paulina Lucus. Also remaining or vamping on 1 chord while coloring the music with chimes, flute, sax, and much of this dosage comes across as spiritual in an ethnic mode.
Try sitting by the ocean and listening to it. As for McDonald & Giles...I struggle with it and it stays packed in a box for the most part. I'm just stuck on the what if. What if they had stayed with the band and Fripp helped craft their songs? How do we know of the outcome? We can make a clear judgement on Fripp's development in composition during that time period and shortly after with Lizard and Islands... where you can clearly observe songs like "Islands" or "Lady of the Dancing Water" which are in the writing style of McDonald & Giles. McDonald wrote chord progressions that were reminiscent of the ones in the song Islands before and on the McDonald & Giles album. I can hear the 2 of them singing both of the songs. Stylistically Fripp composed this way too, however he was a bit more 20th century Avant-Garde than McDonald & Giles....just as he was during the time he worked with Gordon Haskell and Boz. So why would anyone have their mind made up to say that if McDonald & Giles had stayed it would have been a turn for the worse? Fripp was a great writer then and I think he could have shaped their songs into monumental Crimson pieces.
The reality that many people live in is about them identifying with the familiarity they feel and know with I.T.W.O.P. ...while history tells us something opposite. There was no indication of decline in the writing department with any of the members during this time. The departure had more to do with a difference in musical taste. Fripp had the same problems with Gordon Haskell and so he decided to start from the beginning with a newcomer like Boz...teaching him the bass and making suggestions for his vocal phrasings. Ironically if McDonald & Giles had stayed and not placed themselves in la la land,...things would have fallen together easily for King Crimson I'm sure. Michael Giles did a fine job on I.T.W.O.P. but Fripp needed Ian McDonald to share the writing for the band to be that ultimately unique again. Mel Collins couldn't write very well and Fripp turned his efforts down suggesting he stick to playing the sax.
I.T.W.O.P. was mostly a collection of songs and ideas derived from jams that were developed during the road travel with McDonald & Giles. So history tells us that most of the forthcoming second album had already been written. It was easy for Fripp to put the project in motion. I think with McDonald & Giles in the picture everything would have been according to plan and the music would have been brilliant. Either before or during the time of recording Lizard Jon Anderson and Chris Squire were trying to persuade Fripp into joining YES. Bill Bruford used to see them quite often in the early years as he would attend their gigs. Fripp was a great guitarist/writer and musicians were fascinated with his work. Jimi Hendrix saw them in London and screamed with excitment over their set. Fripp was considered serious and caused some musicians to feel a bit inferior during that time. I trust he would have done an excellent job working with McDonald & Giles on a new album.
Edited by TODDLER - September 26 2011 at 08:56
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jammun
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Posted: September 25 2011 at 13:43 |
That Islands record does have Sailor's Tale, which is so far superior to anything on M&G that I do not understand how anyone would even bother to compare the two. Ladies of The Road is good for the perversion side we all have whether we admit it or no...we did like Catfood after all... plus it has that Beatles sound. But I have no interest in ever having The Letters assault me again. That song is pure torture and for all we know the CIA has figured that out and it's on regular playlist rotation at Gitmo and in Afghanistan and those poor souls will forever have a bad impression of KC. M&G has that purply cover art, guess it doesn't hurt having the guys hanging out with those babes in terms of driving sales to young males such as myself at the time. Hell, Flash made a brief career of that. But Poseidon has sublime cover art such that one can become entranced and lost in it.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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jean-marie
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Posted: September 25 2011 at 07:07 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
jammun wrote:
We can and will argue here about Poseidon and Islands, and maybe even Lizard though I don't understand that (not to mention the later stuff); |
Dunno, I put Islands on the Lizard side, probably because of those devilish guitars on it. Because all those topics on lizard i had some more listenings ant finaly it starded growing on me but imho Island is far better
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FAIS QUE TON REVE SOIT PLUS LONG QUE LA NUIT HAVE YOUR DREAM LASTING LONGER THAN THE NIGHT
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: September 25 2011 at 06:45 |
The dungeon keeper speaks 
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: September 25 2011 at 06:38 |
Guldbamsen wrote:
I´ve always thought that the McDonalds and Giles album was better than ITCOTCK. Yep - so shoot me |
I really don't think that's warranted in this case - torture, starvation and flogging will be more than sufficient.
Edited by ExittheLemming - September 25 2011 at 06:39
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: September 25 2011 at 06:33 |
Pretty interesting thread. I´ve always thought that the McDonalds and Giles album was better than ITCOTCK. Yep - so shoot me I see the similarities between the two, but ITCOTCK doesn´t have that quirky Canterbury sound. I hear more of the "whimsical" and slightly jazzy side of Caravan on the McDonalds & Giles record, than I hear KC.
ITCOTCK and Poseidon are equally good to my ears, but had Poseidon been the monster of a double album that TODDLER described, then things would look different.
Edited by Guldbamsen - September 25 2011 at 06:34
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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harmonium.ro
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Posted: September 25 2011 at 05:42 |
jammun wrote:
We can and will argue here about Poseidon and Islands, and maybe even Lizard though I don't understand that (not to mention the later stuff); |
Dunno, I put Islands on the Lizard side, probably because of those devilish guitars on it.
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harmonium.ro
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Posted: September 25 2011 at 05:35 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
I really like most of the McDonald & Giles album (though I think the Birdman piece is a tad long winded and outstays its welcome in places) Perhaps both Ian and Michael both belonged to the more 'pastoral hippy' side of early Crimson and baulked at the sort of direction the band were headed in thereafter?
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Looks like the Lemming ninja'd me. I read Fripp saying (in the booklet of the 40th anniversary ITCOTCK, I think) that McDonald and Giles wanted to stick to the late 60s ballad type with "beautiful" arrangements, drenched with mellotrons and acoustic guitars, while Fripp wanted to keep developing new sounds. I easily take Lizard and Islands over any recycling of the Crimson King / Poseidon stuff.
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jammun
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Posted: September 25 2011 at 01:47 |
Yes it's all coulda woulda, and I'm not disagreeing, but Lizard, at least side one, blew all that up for me. Crimson was and still is, for better or worse, Fripp. We can and will argue here about Poseidon and Islands, and maybe even Lizard though I don't understand that (not to mention the later stuff); but once Bruford and Wetton were on board and we're into that era, KC were probably about as good, to this day, as it will ever get, musically...leaving Giles and McDonald and for that matter Lake and everyone else in the dust. Wha? someone gonna listen to any Styx album instead of Red? Really? More contemporously speaking, Dream Theater? Really? Is that the best you can offer up? Sorry, I don't mean to be an a****le, but there are three albums recorded by Fripp/Wetton/Bruford that just wax any comers (save some jazz guys) and they don't even have to try the competition is so lame. They do not even have to try it's so good. Everyone reading this, disengage from your computer and go listen to The Night Watch.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: September 25 2011 at 00:02 |
prog4evr wrote:
GypsyJoker wrote:
Crimson would've been a better band had McDonald and Giles both stayed.... |
Here, here! Well said, my good...um...Joker... |
This got me thinking (not always a good thing) Crimson at the outset represented such an abundance of talent in one small space that in hindsight, it's hardly surprising that the threat of trampling underfoot would have engendered a recruitment policy resembling an evacuation drill in those early years. I know it's a bit of a glib generalisation but most 'big' bands of any genre have one or two prodigiously talented individuals who lead the rest (yer solid dependable Bill Wyman/Charlie Watts types) willingly or otherwise, into hitherto uncharted territory and innovation. With Crimson however, it's not inconceivable that such were the untapped latent treasures on offer, they could have split into 2 or even 3 different bands that would have gone on to forge important developments in Prog in their own right. The McDonald and Giles school, had they endured, may have ended up in hippy Gong, Khan territory. The more hard edged Schizoid Man school (i.e. Fripp's) mutated into the Larks incarnation while the remains of all that just might have stolen a march on avant/jazz rock fusion. Wild speculation on my part. (the best kind)
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prog4evr
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Posted: September 24 2011 at 23:03 |
GypsyJoker wrote:
Crimson would've been a better band had McDonald and Giles both stayed.... |
Here, here! Well said, my good...um...Joker...
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GypsyJoker
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Posted: September 24 2011 at 22:32 |
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Crimson would've been a better band had McDonald and Giles both stayed; Mel Collins was the only "replacement" musician of their caliber until the LTIA lineup. McDonald was Crimson's prime mover in the early days, and while his vision may not have been as "Crimson-esque" as RF's, the band would've been better off with McDonald in charge.
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jammun
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Posted: September 24 2011 at 21:53 |
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ExittheLemming you take the words right out of my mouth. When I say M&G has not aged all that well it's exactly that pastoral hippy trippy side of it to which I refer. And it's not necessarily the music, which is pretty solid, 'cept that flute stuff which doesn't work very well for me. And spare me some of those lyrics. I looked long and far for the CD of M&G, pre-Amazon days, and paid a premium for it, so I am not dissing it randomly, not at all. Good album, but put it on and listen start to finish, then listen to Poseidon or Lizard or Islands or anything but Earthbound, and as I've said it's obvious who's the musical visionary, even if he did wander in some prog desert for a year or two without a working band. We all know what happened when he emerged from that desert, where against all odds he apparently consumed some lark's tongue in aspic.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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jean-marie
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Posted: September 24 2011 at 09:06 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Another  for Islands and all the others of the inbetweens. |
In between makes me think of: Said the straight man to the the late man, where have you been, i've been here and i've been there and i've been in between,and i think of this topic, most of guys didn't understand on PA 
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FAIS QUE TON REVE SOIT PLUS LONG QUE LA NUIT HAVE YOUR DREAM LASTING LONGER THAN THE NIGHT
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The McDonald & Giles Departure from King Crimson
