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Dean View Drop Down
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    Posted: April 20 2012 at 01:56
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

I am inclined to believe that, while all composers are different, there is no method, style, level of education, lack of correct terminology, outlook or speed that I think should be important enough for us to consider two works any differently or apply any "handicaps". I think the end result is what matters and, sure, we may be comparing apples with oranges, but even by comparing such closely related bands as Yes and ELP, we are hardly comparing apples with apples!

This.

The fact that progressive rock is written differently than classical music does not make it inferior in any way.
Not this.
 
 
No one is claiming prog is inferior. But it isn't comparable either and should not be judged by the same measures that's all.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2012 at 19:34
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

The chances of ANY composer actually writing a piece from start to finish, in order, without mulling things over or doing any editing or mixing up, is pretty small, I would guess. I've certainly never met anybody who would be able to say they can do that.



Actually Roger Hodgson claims to write the entire song in his head first and apparently not much would be changed in the song when Supertramp perform it.  And to use Dean's example in another light, Beethoven did not have the luxury of playing back his notes.  Apparently he could not hear the sound of the Ninth Symphony being played and only knew the audience liked it because he could see them applauding.   He may not have written the entire score in one shot, but he would have necessarily had to choose different methods as compared to prog rock musicians.   The Indian composer Ilayaraja also starts and finishes with the score, there's no question of humming his ideas and checking them out with the musicians because he can 'hear' the compositions in his head.  Not completely related, but Alfred Hitchcock too said he rarely looked into the camera while shooting the scenes because he had already worked out the exact sequence of required shots with their angles and noted them down before he set out to execute the task.
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2012 at 18:46
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

I am inclined to believe that, while all composers are different, there is no method, style, level of education, lack of correct terminology, outlook or speed that I think should be important enough for us to consider two works any differently or apply any "handicaps". I think the end result is what matters and, sure, we may be comparing apples with oranges, but even by comparing such closely related bands as Yes and ELP, we are hardly comparing apples with apples!

This.

The fact that progressive rock is written differently than classical music does not make it inferior in any way.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2012 at 17:11
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

I think Dean has his observation of how prog rockers compose spot on.

But why are we all accepting and overlooking the idea that pre-20th Century composers didn't work in that way. Prog rockers threw banter around because they were part of a group, an ensemble in which the musicians were also the writers. Mozart had no such partner(s) to talk to while composing, but that is the only real difference I can think of. It doesn't mean he didn't whack chords together willy nilly, or perhaps string together some unrelated melodies with a degree of spontaneity.

The chances of ANY composer actually writing a piece from start to finish, in order, without mulling things over or doing any editing or mixing up, is pretty small, I would guess. I've certainly never met anybody who would be able to say they can do that. Not composing in that way doesn't make one a bad composer anyway. I know that wasn't the point that was made, but the point that was made is that we shouldn't compare composers of classics to composers of prog, negatively or positively.

But, I say we can. 

I am inclined to believe that, while all composers are different, there is no method, style, level of education, lack of correct terminology, outlook or speed that I think should be important enough for us to consider two works any differently or apply any "handicaps". I think the end result is what matters and, sure, we may be comparing apples with oranges, but even by comparing such closely related bands as Yes and ELP, we are hardly comparing apples with apples!

I think the case for classical composition as a structured and defined practise devoid of unrelated melodies and spontaneity starts with "The Well-Tempered Clavier" and progresses from there through Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven (all of whom studied Bach very closely) to the present day. Beethoven composing the perfectly amazing and beautifully wonderful 9th Symphony while profoundly deaf adequately demonstrates careful construction to prescribed forms and structures while skilfully introducing new elements into each movement that worked around those rules. No matter that he introduced voices in to a symphony for the first time, or wrote a tripple-time second movement that sounds like it is in quadruple-time,  or that the final movement is so complex it has the same structure as a full symphony (a symphony within a symphony) - he played by the rules of music theory and composed a peice of music in four movements that fits the definition of a symphony - anything else would not have been a symphony. That's what I mean.
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Points: 1433 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2012 at 15:11

I think Dean has his observation of how prog rockers compose spot on.

But why are we all accepting and overlooking the idea that pre-20th Century composers didn't work in that way. Prog rockers threw banter around because they were part of a group, an ensemble in which the musicians were also the writers. Mozart had no such partner(s) to talk to while composing, but that is the only real difference I can think of. It doesn't mean he didn't whack chords together willy nilly, or perhaps string together some unrelated melodies with a degree of spontaneity.

The chances of ANY composer actually writing a piece from start to finish, in order, without mulling things over or doing any editing or mixing up, is pretty small, I would guess. I've certainly never met anybody who would be able to say they can do that. Not composing in that way doesn't make one a bad composer anyway. I know that wasn't the point that was made, but the point that was made is that we shouldn't compare composers of classics to composers of prog, negatively or positively.

But, I say we can. 

I am inclined to believe that, while all composers are different, there is no method, style, level of education, lack of correct terminology, outlook or speed that I think should be important enough for us to consider two works any differently or apply any "handicaps". I think the end result is what matters and, sure, we may be comparing apples with oranges, but even by comparing such closely related bands as Yes and ELP, we are hardly comparing apples with apples!


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Points: 2447 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2012 at 09:57
Dean, I think you are correct.  I think there are probably examples of "composed" prog (The Enid comes to mind), but I suspect they are the exception, rather than the rule.  Yes most certainly pulled disparate musical bits together to create their songs, which as said they had no idea of what the end product would sound like.  I actually think that's what makes them sound so good.  In the case of latter era Floyd, it sounds like Waters had the basic songs all worked out, and the band (mostly Gilmour it seems) would then flesh them out a bit.  I'm pretty sure Waters didn't actually "compose" any of it though, as in writing a score.  The members of Frogg Cafe actually write out their stuff on paper, and learn it from that same paper (they are all music teachers with degrees in composition, so I guess that's not surprising).  However, they still jam in the studio, which occasionally results in new songs or parts of songs.

Anyway, I certainly think that prog "composition" is held in a bit higher esteem than it deserves.......I certainly used to think it was superior to all other music in that regard.  Now I realize it just appeals to me more than other music, and doesn't really have any particular superiority in compositional technique or approach. 
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2012 at 20:26
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:


Yes, not all classic prog was probably meant for close analysis. As there is a gulf between true composed classical music and rock, even progressive music.  Some bands did however stretch that envelope to the extreme as to encroach upon the hallowed grounds where classical music lives.  and that is the music that I think should get its fair placing among the greats. Bands like YES-ELP, etc.. should get the credit for taking things that far, as no other music for the masses has ever delved so deeply into true composition and musicianship before.
I'm pretty sure that happens anyway, at least in prog-circles, we all recognise and give due credit in those cases.
 
I think there is a temptation to take that too far and make more of it than it really is... I honestly do not believe that there is a great deal of true composition in Prog Music, all the talk of structure and layers, wacky time-signatures, unusual key changes, polyphony and polyrythms I think is often the result of jamming, improvisation and making-it-up-as-you-go-along, albeit in a studio rather than on stage [but I generally find my self alone in thinking this, at least around here LOL]. A case in point was a recent question asked on the forum about counterpoint in Prog didn't throw up a massive list of bands or songs, which you would expect if prog really was encroaching on classical territory.
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

But like you mentioned, shortcuts were taken and it was not exactly Mozart scoring on paper into the wee hours of the morning in all cases of progressive musical production, however I am reminded of the little video of ELP writing/practicing in 1973, that was a pretty close as you can get to old school composing, lemme dig up that vid... here it is:

::snip::

I would agree with the gentleman who posted the following comment about that ELP video:

"I guess what blows me away is the fact that this was popular music. Man has the world dumbed down."
Not deliberately trying to rain on your cheerios, but I watched that video and a couple of others on YouTube from the same session and I didn't see evidence of  formal old-school composition - I saw some rock musicians putting together some music so that it (to use my earlier phrase) "sounded right". There's a lovely piece in one of the videos where they are trying to work out the bass part for one section... KE:"this chord here..."  *plays the chord*  "...that one - I think it's B" ... GL:"B what?" ... KE:" aha... you may well ask"...
 
Ermm I dunno, maybe Mozart worked like that too, but I doubt it - however I have seen other rock musicians "compose" songs in pretty much the same way - someone plays a short keyboard melody or a guitar riff and the rest of the band try and work out their parts to go with it then they (or one of them) work out how that fits in with the rest of the tune.
 
The following youtube clips illustrate what I mean here:
 
...In the introduction to this Yes discuss "composing" Yours Is No Disgrace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBKyVfPNn5A [unfortunately embedding is disabled]
...CS: "...we'd pretty much throw all these ideas out and then fashion it into some kind of a song... but once again with no clear idea of what the end picture was supposed to look like until we got it"
 
...here at about 46:30 Yes discuss "composing" Close To The Edge
...RW: "...we'll have a cup of tea Rick while you work out how we go from there to there"
 
 


Edited by Dean - April 12 2012 at 20:30
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Points: 2447 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2012 at 14:09
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
Music can be analysed and picked over, but I think it is dangerous - not all classic prog can stand up to that level of scrutiny and come away unscathed - those artists were not as classically trained as we'd like to believe and their compositional skills were more luck than judgement (okay, that's unfair - let's say they knew what sounded right - I don't believe they deliberately "composed" set pieces as formally as Bach or Mozart so it isn't fair to judge them accordingly). I've seen people use highfalutin words and methodologies to describe Prog and it is often cringe-worthy - Close To The Edge isn't a symphony in four movements, it's medley of three songs segued together with a shorter medley of the same three songs tacked on the end as a nice little coda... sure there is progression of melody occurring within the whole, but that does not mean it was purposely structured to do that. I've heard Rick Wakeman describe how Yes put songs together so I'm pretty sure it was never planned or structured; Squire, Howe and Anderson needed people like Kaye, Wakeman, Moraz or Horn to tie their disparate ideas together into structure... with so many Prog bands it is the personnel that are more important to the composition than the composition itself - look how often classic albums tie in with classic line-ups.


That is an odd coincidence, I always took "float your boat" to be a bit dismissive as well...

Well, I wasn't gonna continue as to make a pest of myself, yet the above paragraph is absolutely brilliant (are you by chance a professor by trade?) so I am inclined to add "yes... but there is more!"  cause we are getting down to it or at least to what I am trying to get at.

Yes, not all classic prog was probably meant for close analysis. As there is a gulf between true composed classical music and rock, even progressive music.  Some bands did however stretch that envelope to the extreme as to encroach upon the hallowed grounds where classical music lives.  and that is the music that I think should get its fair placing among the greats. Bands like YES-ELP, etc.. should get the credit for taking things that far, as no other music for the masses has ever delved so deeply into true composition and musicianship before. But like you mentioned, shortcuts were taken and it was not exactly Mozart scoring on paper into the wee hours of the morning in all cases of progressive musical production, however I am reminded of the little video of ELP writing/practicing in 1973, that was a pretty close as you can get to old school composing, lemme dig up that vid... here it is:




I would agree with the gentleman who posted the following comment about that ELP video:

"I guess what blows me away is the fact that this was popular music. Man has the world dumbed down."







Love that segment.  Love that quote.  I contrast that with American Idol last night showing the singers going over songs in rehearsal (my girlfriend watches it in the same room I play computer games......otherwise, I'd never see it).  Popular music has fallen quite far in my lifetime.
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Points: 877 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2012 at 21:25
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
Music can be analysed and picked over, but I think it is dangerous - not all classic prog can stand up to that level of scrutiny and come away unscathed - those artists were not as classically trained as we'd like to believe and their compositional skills were more luck than judgement (okay, that's unfair - let's say they knew what sounded right - I don't believe they deliberately "composed" set pieces as formally as Bach or Mozart so it isn't fair to judge them accordingly). I've seen people use highfalutin words and methodologies to describe Prog and it is often cringe-worthy - Close To The Edge isn't a symphony in four movements, it's medley of three songs segued together with a shorter medley of the same three songs tacked on the end as a nice little coda... sure there is progression of melody occurring within the whole, but that does not mean it was purposely structured to do that. I've heard Rick Wakeman describe how Yes put songs together so I'm pretty sure it was never planned or structured; Squire, Howe and Anderson needed people like Kaye, Wakeman, Moraz or Horn to tie their disparate ideas together into structure... with so many Prog bands it is the personnel that are more important to the composition than the composition itself - look how often classic albums tie in with classic line-ups.


That is an odd coincidence, I always took "float your boat" to be a bit dismissive as well...

Well, I wasn't gonna continue as to make a pest of myself, yet the above paragraph is absolutely brilliant (are you by chance a professor by trade?) so I am inclined to add "yes... but there is more!"  cause we are getting down to it or at least to what I am trying to get at.

Yes, not all classic prog was probably meant for close analysis. As there is a gulf between true composed classical music and rock, even progressive music.  Some bands did however stretch that envelope to the extreme as to encroach upon the hallowed grounds where classical music lives.  and that is the music that I think should get its fair placing among the greats. Bands like YES-ELP, etc.. should get the credit for taking things that far, as no other music for the masses has ever delved so deeply into true composition and musicianship before. But like you mentioned, shortcuts were taken and it was not exactly Mozart scoring on paper into the wee hours of the morning in all cases of progressive musical production, however I am reminded of the little video of ELP writing/practicing in 1973, that was a pretty close as you can get to old school composing, lemme dig up that vid... here it is:




I would agree with the gentleman who posted the following comment about that ELP video:

"I guess what blows me away is the fact that this was popular music. Man has the world dumbed down."
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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Points: 13860 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2012 at 12:48
Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

I think Dean and Dennis have made this a much better thread than it had any right to be otherwise.

That is very true.
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Points: 2447 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2012 at 11:43
I think Dean and Dennis have made this a much better thread than it had any right to be otherwise.
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Points: 952 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2012 at 06:56
Originally posted by mono mono wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Too often I'm finding the best composed albums here to be rated low and the least well composed albums rated high

This is where I stopped reading.

"I often find people here that have completely different views on some albums than I do"... 



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Points: 652 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2012 at 05:23
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Too often I'm finding the best composed albums here to be rated low and the least well composed albums rated high

This is where I stopped reading.

"I often find people here that have completely different views on some albums than I do"... 
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Points: 14693 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2012 at 03:02
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Squire, Howe and Anderson needed people like Kaye, Wakeman, Moraz or Horn to tie their disparate ideas together into structure... with so many Prog bands it is the personnel that are more important to the composition than the composition itself - look how often classic albums tie in with classic line-ups.


Very true - I remember an interview with Chris Squire regarding the recording of Topographic Oceans & it seems that Anderson & Howe came to the studios with the concept & lyrics, but no real idea how to form them into a musical whole; to paraphrase Squire (can't remember the exact quote) "we had no idea what they were on about, so we just wrote the music & kept out of the way"

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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2012 at 02:42
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:


Hey man, I just quoted the above section but would have liked to quote & reply to more things you said but after a long day at work I don't have the energy to do all the quote within a quote thing.(I tried but I messed it all up.)

About my metal quote I was having some creative writing fun and I hope you weren't put off by it. Obviously we all
have different tastes...I thought of something earlier today so I will repeat it:

Whatever puts a grin above your chin!Smile   That is what I am for.

I'm all for tolerance, 'tis a goodly sentiment, though whatever floats your boat has always seemed dismissive rather than tolerant to me. It is all too easy to appear derogatory when we describe something we don't like, and around here we have enough people who can do that with determined purpose when it comes to trashing genres they don't like.
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:


About judging music, yes we agree that the classics(Bach, Mozart, etc..) have been ranked /rated.  I should have been more clear and explain that I am taking a liberty and assuming that some older prog has been time tested enough and perhaps could be considered as the classics of their era and that they might stand up with any era.  I am supposing some works by YES, ELP, Genesis, Gentle Giant, etc.. that fit that category.  Obviously my opinion.  To go along with that theory, at some point the works will be judged more "formerly" similar to how the old masters are judged, that is all I am saying. Do I have the methodology, no.  But I think one can be used since other great works have in fact been rated, not without controversy in those circles, no doubt. Will everybody be happy, no way.  But there is a whole lot more than just base popularity.  That is all I am trying to say.
Classic Prog that is still popular has passed one test and one test only, how and why it passed that test is something to consider for sure, but that test is simply the test of time, as you said the classics of their era ... might stand up with any era, and it would appear that they do when some of the people who listen to those "classics" weren't even born when the albums were released (just look at the play-list in Colin's (triceratopsoil) signature - he is not atypical of the youngies here)
 
Music can be analysed and picked over, but I think it is dangerous - not all classic prog can stand up to that level of scrutiny and come away unscathed - those artists were not as classically trained as we'd like to believe and their compositional skills were more luck than judgement (okay, that's unfair - let's say they knew what sounded right - I don't believe they deliberately "composed" set pieces as formally as Bach or Mozart so it isn't fair to judge them accordingly). I've seen people use highfalutin words and methodologies to describe Prog and it is often cringe-worthy - Close To The Edge isn't a symphony in four movements, it's medley of three songs segued together with a shorter medley of the same three songs tacked on the end as a nice little coda... sure there is progression of melody occurring within the whole, but that does not mean it was purposely structured to do that. I've heard Rick Wakeman describe how Yes put songs together so I'm pretty sure it was never planned or structured; Squire, Howe and Anderson needed people like Kaye, Wakeman, Moraz or Horn to tie their disparate ideas together into structure... with so many Prog bands it is the personnel that are more important to the composition than the composition itself - look how often classic albums tie in with classic line-ups.
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Points: 877 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2012 at 20:35
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I didn't say that, but that has already been corrected. However, that's a horrible description of metal and not one I adhere too, if that's the kind of metal you listen too then I'm not surprised you don't like it.


Hey man, I just quoted the above section but would have liked to quote & reply to more things you said but after a long day at work I don't have the energy to do all the quote within a quote thing.(I tried but I messed it all up.)

About my metal quote I was having some creative writing fun and I hope you weren't put off by it. Obviously we all
have different tastes...I thought of something earlier today so I will repeat it:

Whatever puts a grin above your chin!Smile   That is what I am for.
 
Thanks for explaining your avatar, Ms Danielle Dax, that is cool. I noticed it from day one. Very nice piece of art.

About judging music, yes we agree that the classics(Bach, Mozart, etc..) have been ranked /rated.  I should have been more clear and explain that I am taking a liberty and assuming that some older prog has been time tested enough and perhaps could be considered as the classics of their era and that they might stand up with any era.  I am supposing some works by YES, ELP, Genesis, Gentle Giant, etc.. that fit that category.  Obviously my opinion.  To go along with that theory, at some point the works will be judged more "formerly" similar to how the old masters are judged, that is all I am saying. Do I have the methodology, no.  But I think one can be used since other great works have in fact been rated, not without controversy in those circles, no doubt. Will everybody be happy, no way.  But there is a whole lot more than just base popularity.  That is all I am trying to say.

Anyway, sorry bout the whole "naptime" comment in my prior post.Big smile  You are a real good sport and are a pleasure chatting with.  I would never call you a "git" that  dig was purely "hypothetical".Wink

Oh and thanks for sharing a Monty Python laugh with me. English Comedy & English Music has always been on the cutting edge, IMHO. Smile


Edited by dennismoore - April 10 2012 at 20:38
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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Points: 18016 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2012 at 18:49
What I don't understand is why Walter gets banned for trolling, but this guy doesn't.  At least more than 0 people like Walter.

Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Number 3  Kayo Dot  members came from progressive heavy metal band


Maybe, but Coyote has nothing to do with metal.  Then again, from your description of it I'd say you don't even know what the term metal refers to.
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Points: 2531 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2012 at 18:43
Can't stand metal Tongue
 
I like heavy rock though. I only consider 2 of Sabbaths songs from the 70s to be heavy metal. Symptom of the universe and Sabbath bloody Sabbath. I really can't stand the song Sabbath bloody Sabbath. Symptom of the universe is good musically but I hate the vocals, but I like the ending. Heavy metal is just a bad fad to me. I like heavy rock because it doesn't go over the edge with bad vocals and overdone bass drumming etc. There's an overdose of guitar to begin with Cool. Any songs I consider metal isn't worth persisting with.


Edited by dr prog - April 10 2012 at 18:45
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2012 at 13:19
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

^ There is only one Python reference in my post and that is not it.
 
I seldom refer to people by their screen name, I'm too old for that nonsense - 'Tim' is just a name I chose at random that seemed fitting for Dr Prog (PHD, Calcutta, failed), whose member profile gives his real name as "Not Given" (much like yours Mr. Nismoore).
 
 
For my name, if you don't like Dennis(You prolly didn't know I was called Dennis.) You may call me Tim???
Just do not treat me as an inferior, as I did not vote for you.(Ok, how many Python References was that???)Smile
 
As far as your Python reference, that was child's play, it was a very obvious one.  You sir are remiss not realizing that you made the additional Python reference and didn't know it when you named the gent "Tim".  Yet since you state advanced age I will give deference to that, as I am no teenager myself.
Okay, we've probably done that to death now - the Python reference was made in your honour, it's not something I| make a habit of and if your name is Dennis then by Dennis you shall be known, I can't see you as a Tim anyway (not that I was calling you Tim anyway - this is confusing enough).
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

 
It does spin my head thinking how you can say that metal prog fans understand prog more than prog fans.  Anybody who listens to the same single dynamic(rapid staccato down strumming continuously and in every song) would be no more qualified to judge anything except which pain reliever to pick to get rid of the horrible headaches one must get after listening to all that screaming and repetitive bass drum thumping. 
I didn't say that, but that has already been corrected. However, that's a horrible description of metal and not one I adhere too, if that's the kind of metal you listen too then I'm not surprised you don't like it.
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

 
When I typed about the bias of Metal albums here, I was thinking of the 2011 Top list
The Number 2 & 3 entries were metal, among others.
 
2010 had a bunch of Metal...
Number 3  Kayo Dot  members came from progressive heavy metal band
Number 4  Haken is progressive metal.
Number 6. Écailles de lune - ALCEST "Even the abraisive black metal vocals "
etc...
 
I may be a silly Lupin Thief but I can read.Wink  Lots of Metal right at the top of the rankings.
Ah... you can but I can't read minds - when you said the ratings here were biased towards metal I didn't realise you were talking about the collaborators' favourite albums of 2011 (which are not selected on "ratings", but on a very simple 1 to 10 vote of what albums grabbed our attention in 2011) ... the real charts that are based upon member ratings and whose rankings are calculated with cold algorithmic accuracy tell a different story.
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

 
I did really enjoy the the French pen name reference you made, it did add color.Smile  Though I must disagree in general about the serious stuff in your post, about music being judged, as it has already been for centuries.
Has it? I mean objectively. In the main music is judged subjectively - the first reaction is always "do I like this?", not "how well is this composed and played?" - sure enough the really good stuff - the cream of the cream - is both, but not always - the most popular will always be the stuff that's liked the most, not the stuff that's the best composed and most expertly played, even in classical music - and it does not follow that the best composed and best played is going to be "a damn good tune". This brings us back to the OP - is the most melodic Prog the best Prog? Is melody even a defining characteristic of a) Prog and b) goodness? I don't think it is, even in Symphonic Prog - the good stuff (in my opinion) is the jarring and chaotic (Yes is far from melodic and "symphonic" - ELP is cacophonous and aggressive - Focus verges on the pure avant garde when the mood takes them).
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

 
Am I the guy to judge music?(Only after about 8 beers...)  No.   But I do think we should be able to talk about the different elements that should go into crafting a system, and maybe we can use that system here to see how that works out on a few records. Am I dissing the reviews or reviewers here on PA, certainly not.  There is nothing wrong with trying a different system, right? Do we need to change? No not at all. 
Ratings and subsequent rankings are "just for fun" - really not to be taken seriously (seriously) - reviews are the be all and end all because in a review you can use whatever system suits you best - some try to be objective and some do not, some break down the structure of each track and try to anaylise each phrase, others just go with the emotion and the feeling, and afterall, that's why we listen to music, at least that's why I listen to music.
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

 But...It beats people calling Dr. Prog names, or me calling you a silly skinny girlie git(your avatar).  Or somebody calling me late for diner(which I never am!).
'twas not I that called him a lunatic. Tongue My avatar is Ms Danielle Dax - she is the same age as I am and she and I were born in the same town (Oh I wish I had gone to the same school as her but alas I did not), she may be still skinny (alas I'm not), I doubt she is silly (alas I can be), and she isn't a girlie any longer (alas? I think not) , however I am a git (alas, that is beyond doubt). Big smile 
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

 
By the way, though you seem to be a rather reserved lad, when you do pick your spots to post something it is very nicely written and is enjoyable to read.Tongue
I try my best. I tend to be forthright but have a habit of calling a spade a hand powered flat bladed earth moving utensil - if it gets too much tell me to sod off, I'll not be offended (hurt maybe, but not offended).
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

 
About judging music(that was the topic of this thread), I have submitted a few possible considerations, perhaps other people can contribute some more and we can go from there.
Actually, while that was the topic of this thread, I suspect that wasn't the reason it was started, but that's by-the-by, it can be.


Edited by Dean - April 10 2012 at 14:23
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2012 at 11:33
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

 
What I will say is that I am genuinely envious of you being a prog metal guy, as there is so much of that going on these days.  I wish I could find even one third as much of that in the prog records that work for me.
 
Cheers!


Thanks but not really...I am not much of a PROG metal guy.  I do like the so called true metal stuff.  All that brutally violent stuff with relentless blastbeats and growling, you know.  Prog metal sounds too sanitized,  as if it is trying too hard to make sense and 'sound' intelligent instead of just unleashing some magnificent metal fury.  If I really wanted something on the softer side, I would very well get it on a prog rock album. Wink  I like prog rock more, generally speaking, than any kind of metal, true or otherwise.


Edited by rogerthat - April 10 2012 at 11:35
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