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lazland ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: October 28 2008 Location: Wales Status: Offline Points: 13860 |
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That is very true.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
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dennismoore ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: April 19 2011 Location: America Status: Offline Points: 877 |
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That is an odd coincidence, I always took "float your boat" to be a bit dismissive as well... Well, I wasn't gonna continue as to make a pest of myself, yet the above paragraph is absolutely brilliant (are you by chance a professor by trade?) so I am inclined to add "yes... but there is more!" cause we are getting down to it or at least to what I am trying to get at. Yes, not all classic prog was probably meant for close analysis. As there is a gulf between true composed classical music and rock, even progressive music. Some bands did however stretch that envelope to the extreme as to encroach upon the hallowed grounds where classical music lives. and that is the music that I think should get its fair placing among the greats. Bands like YES-ELP, etc.. should get the credit for taking things that far, as no other music for the masses has ever delved so deeply into true composition and musicianship before. But like you mentioned, shortcuts were taken and it was not exactly Mozart scoring on paper into the wee hours of the morning in all cases of progressive musical production, however I am reminded of the little video of ELP writing/practicing in 1973, that was a pretty close as you can get to old school composing, lemme dig up that vid... here it is: I would agree with the gentleman who posted the following comment about that ELP video: "I guess what blows me away is the fact that this was popular music. Man has the world dumbed down." |
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"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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infandous ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2447 |
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Love that segment. Love that quote. I contrast that with American Idol last night showing the singers going over songs in rehearsal (my girlfriend watches it in the same room I play computer games......otherwise, I'd never see it). Popular music has fallen quite far in my lifetime. |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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I'm pretty sure that happens anyway, at least in prog-circles, we all recognise and give due credit in those cases.
I think there is a temptation to take that too far and make more of it than it really is... I honestly do not believe that there is a great deal of true composition in Prog Music, all the talk of structure and layers, wacky time-signatures, unusual key changes, polyphony and polyrythms I think is often the result of jamming, improvisation and making-it-up-as-you-go-along, albeit in a studio rather than on stage [but I generally find my self alone in thinking this, at least around here
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Not deliberately trying to rain on your cheerios, but I watched that video and a couple of others on YouTube from the same session and I didn't see evidence of formal old-school composition - I saw some rock musicians putting together some music so that it (to use my earlier phrase) "sounded right". There's a lovely piece in one of the videos where they are trying to work out the bass part for one section... KE:"this chord here..." *plays the chord* "...that one - I think it's B" ... GL:"B what?" ... KE:" aha... you may well ask"...
![]() The following youtube clips illustrate what I mean here:
...In the introduction to this Yes discuss "composing" Yours Is No Disgrace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBKyVfPNn5A [unfortunately embedding is disabled]
...CS: "...we'd pretty much throw all these ideas out and then fashion it into some kind of a song... but once again with no clear idea of what the end picture was supposed to look like until we got it"
...here at about 46:30 Yes discuss "composing" Close To The Edge
...RW: "...we'll have a cup of tea Rick while you work out how we go from there to there"
Edited by Dean - April 12 2012 at 20:30 |
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infandous ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2447 |
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Dean, I think you are correct. I think there are probably examples of "composed" prog (The Enid comes to mind), but I suspect they are the exception, rather than the rule. Yes most certainly pulled disparate musical bits together to create their songs, which as said they had no idea of what the end product would sound like. I actually think that's what makes them sound so good. In the case of latter era Floyd, it sounds like Waters had the basic songs all worked out, and the band (mostly Gilmour it seems) would then flesh them out a bit. I'm pretty sure Waters didn't actually "compose" any of it though, as in writing a score. The members of Frogg Cafe actually write out their stuff on paper, and learn it from that same paper (they are all music teachers with degrees in composition, so I guess that's not surprising). However, they still jam in the studio, which occasionally results in new songs or parts of songs.
Anyway, I certainly think that prog "composition" is held in a bit higher esteem than it deserves.......I certainly used to think it was superior to all other music in that regard. Now I realize it just appeals to me more than other music, and doesn't really have any particular superiority in compositional technique or approach. |
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thehallway ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: April 13 2010 Location: Dorset, England Status: Offline Points: 1433 |
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I think Dean has his observation of how prog rockers compose spot on. But why are we all accepting and overlooking the idea that pre-20th Century composers didn't work in that way. Prog rockers threw banter around because they were part of a group, an ensemble in which the musicians were also the writers. Mozart had no such partner(s) to talk to while composing, but that is the only real difference I can think of. It doesn't mean he didn't whack chords together willy nilly, or perhaps string together some unrelated melodies with a degree of spontaneity. The chances of ANY composer actually writing a piece from start to finish, in order, without mulling things over or doing any editing or mixing up, is pretty small, I would guess. I've certainly never met anybody who would be able to say they can do that. Not composing in that way doesn't make one a bad composer anyway. I know that wasn't the point that was made, but the point that was made is that we shouldn't compare composers of classics to composers of prog, negatively or positively. But, I say we can. I am inclined to believe that, while all composers are different, there is no method, style, level of education, lack of correct terminology, outlook or speed that I think should be important enough for us to consider two works any differently or apply any "handicaps". I think the end result is what matters and, sure, we may be comparing apples with oranges, but even by comparing such closely related bands as Yes and ELP, we are hardly comparing apples with apples! |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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I think the case for classical composition as a structured and defined practise devoid of unrelated melodies and spontaneity starts with "The Well-Tempered Clavier" and progresses from there through Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven (all of whom studied Bach very closely) to the present day. Beethoven composing the perfectly amazing and beautifully wonderful 9th Symphony while profoundly deaf adequately demonstrates careful construction to prescribed forms and structures while skilfully introducing new elements into each movement that worked around those rules. No matter that he introduced voices in to a symphony for the first time, or wrote a tripple-time second movement that sounds like it is in quadruple-time, or that the final movement is so complex it has the same structure as a full symphony (a symphony within a symphony) - he played by the rules of music theory and composed a peice of music in four movements that fits the definition of a symphony - anything else would not have been a symphony. That's what I mean.
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Ambient Hurricanes ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: December 25 2011 Location: internet Status: Offline Points: 2549 |
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This. The fact that progressive rock is written differently than classical music does not make it inferior in any way.
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Actually Roger Hodgson claims to write the entire song in his head first and apparently not much would be changed in the song when Supertramp perform it. And to use Dean's example in another light, Beethoven did not have the luxury of playing back his notes. Apparently he could not hear the sound of the Ninth Symphony being played and only knew the audience liked it because he could see them applauding. He may not have written the entire score in one shot, but he would have necessarily had to choose different methods as compared to prog rock musicians. The Indian composer Ilayaraja also starts and finishes with the score, there's no question of humming his ideas and checking them out with the musicians because he can 'hear' the compositions in his head. Not completely related, but Alfred Hitchcock too said he rarely looked into the camera while shooting the scenes because he had already worked out the exact sequence of required shots with their angles and noted them down before he set out to execute the task. |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Not this.
No one is claiming prog is inferior. But it isn't comparable either and should not be judged by the same measures that's all.
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