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Topic ClosedDo PA proggers have the right prog balance?

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lazland View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2012 at 12:48
Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

I think Dean and Dennis have made this a much better thread than it had any right to be otherwise.

That is very true.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2012 at 21:25
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
Music can be analysed and picked over, but I think it is dangerous - not all classic prog can stand up to that level of scrutiny and come away unscathed - those artists were not as classically trained as we'd like to believe and their compositional skills were more luck than judgement (okay, that's unfair - let's say they knew what sounded right - I don't believe they deliberately "composed" set pieces as formally as Bach or Mozart so it isn't fair to judge them accordingly). I've seen people use highfalutin words and methodologies to describe Prog and it is often cringe-worthy - Close To The Edge isn't a symphony in four movements, it's medley of three songs segued together with a shorter medley of the same three songs tacked on the end as a nice little coda... sure there is progression of melody occurring within the whole, but that does not mean it was purposely structured to do that. I've heard Rick Wakeman describe how Yes put songs together so I'm pretty sure it was never planned or structured; Squire, Howe and Anderson needed people like Kaye, Wakeman, Moraz or Horn to tie their disparate ideas together into structure... with so many Prog bands it is the personnel that are more important to the composition than the composition itself - look how often classic albums tie in with classic line-ups.


That is an odd coincidence, I always took "float your boat" to be a bit dismissive as well...

Well, I wasn't gonna continue as to make a pest of myself, yet the above paragraph is absolutely brilliant (are you by chance a professor by trade?) so I am inclined to add "yes... but there is more!"  cause we are getting down to it or at least to what I am trying to get at.

Yes, not all classic prog was probably meant for close analysis. As there is a gulf between true composed classical music and rock, even progressive music.  Some bands did however stretch that envelope to the extreme as to encroach upon the hallowed grounds where classical music lives.  and that is the music that I think should get its fair placing among the greats. Bands like YES-ELP, etc.. should get the credit for taking things that far, as no other music for the masses has ever delved so deeply into true composition and musicianship before. But like you mentioned, shortcuts were taken and it was not exactly Mozart scoring on paper into the wee hours of the morning in all cases of progressive musical production, however I am reminded of the little video of ELP writing/practicing in 1973, that was a pretty close as you can get to old school composing, lemme dig up that vid... here it is:




I would agree with the gentleman who posted the following comment about that ELP video:

"I guess what blows me away is the fact that this was popular music. Man has the world dumbed down."





"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2012 at 14:09
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
Music can be analysed and picked over, but I think it is dangerous - not all classic prog can stand up to that level of scrutiny and come away unscathed - those artists were not as classically trained as we'd like to believe and their compositional skills were more luck than judgement (okay, that's unfair - let's say they knew what sounded right - I don't believe they deliberately "composed" set pieces as formally as Bach or Mozart so it isn't fair to judge them accordingly). I've seen people use highfalutin words and methodologies to describe Prog and it is often cringe-worthy - Close To The Edge isn't a symphony in four movements, it's medley of three songs segued together with a shorter medley of the same three songs tacked on the end as a nice little coda... sure there is progression of melody occurring within the whole, but that does not mean it was purposely structured to do that. I've heard Rick Wakeman describe how Yes put songs together so I'm pretty sure it was never planned or structured; Squire, Howe and Anderson needed people like Kaye, Wakeman, Moraz or Horn to tie their disparate ideas together into structure... with so many Prog bands it is the personnel that are more important to the composition than the composition itself - look how often classic albums tie in with classic line-ups.


That is an odd coincidence, I always took "float your boat" to be a bit dismissive as well...

Well, I wasn't gonna continue as to make a pest of myself, yet the above paragraph is absolutely brilliant (are you by chance a professor by trade?) so I am inclined to add "yes... but there is more!"  cause we are getting down to it or at least to what I am trying to get at.

Yes, not all classic prog was probably meant for close analysis. As there is a gulf between true composed classical music and rock, even progressive music.  Some bands did however stretch that envelope to the extreme as to encroach upon the hallowed grounds where classical music lives.  and that is the music that I think should get its fair placing among the greats. Bands like YES-ELP, etc.. should get the credit for taking things that far, as no other music for the masses has ever delved so deeply into true composition and musicianship before. But like you mentioned, shortcuts were taken and it was not exactly Mozart scoring on paper into the wee hours of the morning in all cases of progressive musical production, however I am reminded of the little video of ELP writing/practicing in 1973, that was a pretty close as you can get to old school composing, lemme dig up that vid... here it is:




I would agree with the gentleman who posted the following comment about that ELP video:

"I guess what blows me away is the fact that this was popular music. Man has the world dumbed down."








Love that segment.  Love that quote.  I contrast that with American Idol last night showing the singers going over songs in rehearsal (my girlfriend watches it in the same room I play computer games......otherwise, I'd never see it).  Popular music has fallen quite far in my lifetime.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2012 at 20:26
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:


Yes, not all classic prog was probably meant for close analysis. As there is a gulf between true composed classical music and rock, even progressive music.  Some bands did however stretch that envelope to the extreme as to encroach upon the hallowed grounds where classical music lives.  and that is the music that I think should get its fair placing among the greats. Bands like YES-ELP, etc.. should get the credit for taking things that far, as no other music for the masses has ever delved so deeply into true composition and musicianship before.
I'm pretty sure that happens anyway, at least in prog-circles, we all recognise and give due credit in those cases.
 
I think there is a temptation to take that too far and make more of it than it really is... I honestly do not believe that there is a great deal of true composition in Prog Music, all the talk of structure and layers, wacky time-signatures, unusual key changes, polyphony and polyrythms I think is often the result of jamming, improvisation and making-it-up-as-you-go-along, albeit in a studio rather than on stage [but I generally find my self alone in thinking this, at least around here LOL]. A case in point was a recent question asked on the forum about counterpoint in Prog didn't throw up a massive list of bands or songs, which you would expect if prog really was encroaching on classical territory.
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

But like you mentioned, shortcuts were taken and it was not exactly Mozart scoring on paper into the wee hours of the morning in all cases of progressive musical production, however I am reminded of the little video of ELP writing/practicing in 1973, that was a pretty close as you can get to old school composing, lemme dig up that vid... here it is:

::snip::

I would agree with the gentleman who posted the following comment about that ELP video:

"I guess what blows me away is the fact that this was popular music. Man has the world dumbed down."

Not deliberately trying to rain on your cheerios, but I watched that video and a couple of others on YouTube from the same session and I didn't see evidence of  formal old-school composition - I saw some rock musicians putting together some music so that it (to use my earlier phrase) "sounded right". There's a lovely piece in one of the videos where they are trying to work out the bass part for one section... KE:"this chord here..."  *plays the chord*  "...that one - I think it's B" ... GL:"B what?" ... KE:" aha... you may well ask"...
 
Ermm I dunno, maybe Mozart worked like that too, but I doubt it - however I have seen other rock musicians "compose" songs in pretty much the same way - someone plays a short keyboard melody or a guitar riff and the rest of the band try and work out their parts to go with it then they (or one of them) work out how that fits in with the rest of the tune.
 
The following youtube clips illustrate what I mean here:
 
...In the introduction to this Yes discuss "composing" Yours Is No Disgrace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBKyVfPNn5A [unfortunately embedding is disabled]
...CS: "...we'd pretty much throw all these ideas out and then fashion it into some kind of a song... but once again with no clear idea of what the end picture was supposed to look like until we got it"
 
...here at about 46:30 Yes discuss "composing" Close To The Edge
...RW: "...we'll have a cup of tea Rick while you work out how we go from there to there"
 
 


Edited by Dean - April 12 2012 at 20:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2012 at 09:57
Dean, I think you are correct.  I think there are probably examples of "composed" prog (The Enid comes to mind), but I suspect they are the exception, rather than the rule.  Yes most certainly pulled disparate musical bits together to create their songs, which as said they had no idea of what the end product would sound like.  I actually think that's what makes them sound so good.  In the case of latter era Floyd, it sounds like Waters had the basic songs all worked out, and the band (mostly Gilmour it seems) would then flesh them out a bit.  I'm pretty sure Waters didn't actually "compose" any of it though, as in writing a score.  The members of Frogg Cafe actually write out their stuff on paper, and learn it from that same paper (they are all music teachers with degrees in composition, so I guess that's not surprising).  However, they still jam in the studio, which occasionally results in new songs or parts of songs.

Anyway, I certainly think that prog "composition" is held in a bit higher esteem than it deserves.......I certainly used to think it was superior to all other music in that regard.  Now I realize it just appeals to me more than other music, and doesn't really have any particular superiority in compositional technique or approach. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2012 at 15:11

I think Dean has his observation of how prog rockers compose spot on.

But why are we all accepting and overlooking the idea that pre-20th Century composers didn't work in that way. Prog rockers threw banter around because they were part of a group, an ensemble in which the musicians were also the writers. Mozart had no such partner(s) to talk to while composing, but that is the only real difference I can think of. It doesn't mean he didn't whack chords together willy nilly, or perhaps string together some unrelated melodies with a degree of spontaneity.

The chances of ANY composer actually writing a piece from start to finish, in order, without mulling things over or doing any editing or mixing up, is pretty small, I would guess. I've certainly never met anybody who would be able to say they can do that. Not composing in that way doesn't make one a bad composer anyway. I know that wasn't the point that was made, but the point that was made is that we shouldn't compare composers of classics to composers of prog, negatively or positively.

But, I say we can. 

I am inclined to believe that, while all composers are different, there is no method, style, level of education, lack of correct terminology, outlook or speed that I think should be important enough for us to consider two works any differently or apply any "handicaps". I think the end result is what matters and, sure, we may be comparing apples with oranges, but even by comparing such closely related bands as Yes and ELP, we are hardly comparing apples with apples!



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2012 at 17:11
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

I think Dean has his observation of how prog rockers compose spot on.

But why are we all accepting and overlooking the idea that pre-20th Century composers didn't work in that way. Prog rockers threw banter around because they were part of a group, an ensemble in which the musicians were also the writers. Mozart had no such partner(s) to talk to while composing, but that is the only real difference I can think of. It doesn't mean he didn't whack chords together willy nilly, or perhaps string together some unrelated melodies with a degree of spontaneity.

The chances of ANY composer actually writing a piece from start to finish, in order, without mulling things over or doing any editing or mixing up, is pretty small, I would guess. I've certainly never met anybody who would be able to say they can do that. Not composing in that way doesn't make one a bad composer anyway. I know that wasn't the point that was made, but the point that was made is that we shouldn't compare composers of classics to composers of prog, negatively or positively.

But, I say we can. 

I am inclined to believe that, while all composers are different, there is no method, style, level of education, lack of correct terminology, outlook or speed that I think should be important enough for us to consider two works any differently or apply any "handicaps". I think the end result is what matters and, sure, we may be comparing apples with oranges, but even by comparing such closely related bands as Yes and ELP, we are hardly comparing apples with apples!

I think the case for classical composition as a structured and defined practise devoid of unrelated melodies and spontaneity starts with "The Well-Tempered Clavier" and progresses from there through Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven (all of whom studied Bach very closely) to the present day. Beethoven composing the perfectly amazing and beautifully wonderful 9th Symphony while profoundly deaf adequately demonstrates careful construction to prescribed forms and structures while skilfully introducing new elements into each movement that worked around those rules. No matter that he introduced voices in to a symphony for the first time, or wrote a tripple-time second movement that sounds like it is in quadruple-time,  or that the final movement is so complex it has the same structure as a full symphony (a symphony within a symphony) - he played by the rules of music theory and composed a peice of music in four movements that fits the definition of a symphony - anything else would not have been a symphony. That's what I mean.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2012 at 18:46
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

I am inclined to believe that, while all composers are different, there is no method, style, level of education, lack of correct terminology, outlook or speed that I think should be important enough for us to consider two works any differently or apply any "handicaps". I think the end result is what matters and, sure, we may be comparing apples with oranges, but even by comparing such closely related bands as Yes and ELP, we are hardly comparing apples with apples!

This.

The fact that progressive rock is written differently than classical music does not make it inferior in any way.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2012 at 19:34
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

The chances of ANY composer actually writing a piece from start to finish, in order, without mulling things over or doing any editing or mixing up, is pretty small, I would guess. I've certainly never met anybody who would be able to say they can do that.



Actually Roger Hodgson claims to write the entire song in his head first and apparently not much would be changed in the song when Supertramp perform it.  And to use Dean's example in another light, Beethoven did not have the luxury of playing back his notes.  Apparently he could not hear the sound of the Ninth Symphony being played and only knew the audience liked it because he could see them applauding.   He may not have written the entire score in one shot, but he would have necessarily had to choose different methods as compared to prog rock musicians.   The Indian composer Ilayaraja also starts and finishes with the score, there's no question of humming his ideas and checking them out with the musicians because he can 'hear' the compositions in his head.  Not completely related, but Alfred Hitchcock too said he rarely looked into the camera while shooting the scenes because he had already worked out the exact sequence of required shots with their angles and noted them down before he set out to execute the task.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2012 at 01:56
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

I am inclined to believe that, while all composers are different, there is no method, style, level of education, lack of correct terminology, outlook or speed that I think should be important enough for us to consider two works any differently or apply any "handicaps". I think the end result is what matters and, sure, we may be comparing apples with oranges, but even by comparing such closely related bands as Yes and ELP, we are hardly comparing apples with apples!

This.

The fact that progressive rock is written differently than classical music does not make it inferior in any way.
Not this.
 
 
No one is claiming prog is inferior. But it isn't comparable either and should not be judged by the same measures that's all.
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