wilmon91 wrote: Dean wrote: The freedom to choose has nothing to do with intellectual reasoning You have to be mentally aware of having this freedom in order to utilize it. Without conscious thinking you will only act on instinct. Dean wrote: nor does it impose any responsibility. You can choose because you are an omnivore and you have a choice because intensive arable farming has permitted it. The point was that animals are innocent compared to humans. Humans have the freedom of will, they can find options by intellectual reasoning. They can invent stuff that changes their conditions.

Vegetarianism can't really be considered "living", though.

I became vegetarian a couple of years ago - and I completely support your use of the word "ethical" to describe your motives, Fighter. (And your love of Jon Anderson. I have tickets to see him in Sydney in April!)

I guess the person who was the most surprised at my becoming vegetarian was me. A couple of years ago, if you'd told me I would become vegetarian, I'd have laughed. I used to look down on vegetarianism as some crackpot affectation. Except for Hunza pies. I used to work near a vegetarian cafe which did excellent Hunza pies. Only reason I went there.

A couple of years ago, I began to feel uncomfortable with eating meat. I'd been studying Buddhism for a few years, and practising mindfulness; and I became increasingly aware that I was feeling uncomfortable whenever my six-year-old expressed his love of animals. Here he was, crowing over duckies and piggies and lambs, and here was I eating duck and ham and slow-roasted lamb. I felt hypocritical that my enjoyment of my food followed from the suffering of these animals my son loved.

Then I came down with an infection which went systemic and became life-threatening, and I ended up in a hospital bed. Lots of opportunity for practising mindfulness while I coped with what my body and the hospital staff were doing.

As I recovered, I read a news story about someone who used kitchen equipment to torture an animal. That did it. Appalled as I was with this person's behaviour, I could no longer reconcile my own awareness of the suffering of animals with my eating their flesh. One of those aspects of me had to go. So I gave up meat.

That was it. Easier than when I gave up cigarettes. Today, I cook fresh vegetarian meals for myself, and for those family members and friends who want it, daily. And I'm always surprised when people say, after eating a meal I cooked, "There was no meat in that meal - and I didn't miss it." (Second only to the very satisfying, "I love your cupcakes - what do you mean they're vegan?!")

I'm not evangelical about my vegetarianism. This post is the first time I've mentioned it to someone who hasn't asked me, "Why did you become vegetarian?" Nor do I have problems with others eating meat. My vegetarianism is about my feelings, not theirs. I cook meat dishes for my family when they ask and I serve them without lectures or reservations.

And yeah, occasionally I'll read a news story which mentions some benefit of vegetarianism, like this weeks' news that it cuts the risk of life-threatening heart disease by about a third. Bonus! My doctor is happy, I'm happy, my family is happy.

Rock on!

I find Crows, Dolphins, Octopuses, and Sharks to be as equaly amazing in their social structure, intellegence, and problem solving minds, also rats are very adaptable and high developed societies in same places as humans, maybe the reall high societies are the Rat society under New York, who knows..

Ajay wrote: I guess the person who was the most surprised at my becoming vegetarian was me. A couple of years ago, if you'd told me I would become vegetarian, I'd have laughed.

Ajay wrote:    A couple of years ago, I began to feel uncomfortable with eating meat.

Ajay wrote:    Then I came down with an infection which went systemic and became life-threatening, and I ended up in a hospital bed. Lots of opportunity for practising mindfulness while I coped with what my body and the hospital staff were doing.

For me it also happened after a sickness, but not like yours, just a flu. I thought I was well after just 1 or 2 days. I made a boeuf bourgignon, and it was very good, nothing wrong with it.But I got a special sensation afterwards that made me dislike meat. And maybe I wasnt 100% fully recovered from the flu. So I stopped eating meat from that point, 10 months ago. You could say its a pavlovian thing (or what you call it), blaming this event for creating this aversion to meat . But there was nothing wrong with the borgignon , I just was in a different state of mind I guess. My relation to meat hasn't changed much since then. But I do eat chicken.  I may crave for meat when Im very hungry, but the aversion to it is still there. The feeling is that it's something heavy that drags you down, like a burden. It feels slightly more alien to me now than it used to be. But I could eat meat if I wanted, it's not some kind of phobia. But the decision came from a change of mental sensations, so it wasn't a planned decision.

2 months ago I stopped drinking coffee, it wasnt planned either , but thats another story. Maybe its a strange phase in my life but I see it as growing and maturing as a person. Most importantly is that you're not fooling yourself, or letting yourself be fooled by others. I will start drinking coffee again, thats for sure, just not right now.


Edited by wilmon91 - February 02 2013 at 08:31

I like pot-au-feu, boeuf bourguignon, canard laqué, blanquette de veau and many other meat-based dishes.

wilmon91 wrote: Dean wrote: A couple of points - I don't buy into the idea that mankind is the only mentally aware creature or we are the only creature capable of conscious thinking Dean wrote:   It is arrogant of mankind to think they are "special" in this regard.   I am sure that there is a consciousness in all animals, but its nature is different from animal to animal. Science knows very little about these things. In regards to senses they have access to different levels of experiencing reality compared to humans. It's hard to imagine what it would be like to have the extremely sensitive sense of smell that some animals have. Or the sharp-sightedness of some birds. There may be other senses not accessible to humans, like sensing the earths gravitational field and the possibility to orient yourself to it. But it's hard to imagine the nature of animals consciousness. Monkeys and apes are capable of rational thinking, and there seems to be intelligence in dolphins etcetera. But I think that humans holds a very special place among living creatures because of their consciousness, intelligence and above all self-awareness. If such a claim is arrogant , how can you justify killing animals and not humans. If all are equal, then killing a bird is murder? Or maybe you justify it because we happen to be at the top of the food chain. I don't see humans as being part of the food chain, maybe they are, but they are not animals in the same sense as other creatures are.

wilmon91 wrote:   Dean wrote:   Between the neolithic times and the Industrial Revolution the average human had a shorter working day and more holidays through the year than we have had since those times -invention since then has increased our burden, not liberated us from it. That's absurd.

wilmon91 wrote: I',m pretty addicted to tea now, though.

Hehe - tell me about it! Classic Rock's Prog Rock Magazine ran a campaign some time back: "Drink tea and listen to prog." That about sums up my lifestyle.