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sorcerer kermes 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2008
Location: Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 102
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 Posted: March 15 2013 at 16:35 |
i`ve seen many people in this site (unfortunately many Special Collaborators
)praise non prog artists and rate them five stars, we have plenty of pop artists here titled as CROSSOVER PROG or PROG RELATED! 
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 15 2013 at 16:40 |
 sorcerer kermes wrote:
i`ve seen many people in this site (unfortunately many Special Collaborators )praise non prog artists and rate them five stars, we have plenty of pop artists here titled as CROSSOVER PROG or PROG RELATED!
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Which part of Crossover Prog and Prog Related don't you understand?
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What?
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sorcerer kermes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2008
Location: Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 102
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Posted: March 15 2013 at 16:45 |
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i understand it , it means (not in general of course) someone loves a pop musicians and make some room for his/her favorite artist everywhere even in a prog dedicated site! thats where these odd titles come helping!
Edited by sorcerer kermes - March 15 2013 at 16:48
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: March 15 2013 at 16:47 |
sorcerer kermes wrote:
i`ve seen many people in this site (unfortunately many Special Collaborators
)praise non prog artists and rate them five stars, we have plenty of pop artists here titled as CROSSOVER PROG or PROG RELATED!
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Name some. I'll name a few from related for you, Queen, Blue Oyster Cult, David Bowie. While they are primarily considered more commercial, they do use prog influences in their music and indeed have influenced some prog artists. And while many of us love those artists, I'm pretty sure most on this site will agree that Lady Gaga is no David Bowie. 
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
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Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: March 15 2013 at 16:50 |
sorcerer kermes wrote:
i understand it , it means someone love a pop musicians and make some room for his/her favorite artist everywhere even in a prog dedicated site! thats where these odd titles come helping!
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You have no understanding of the process of getting bands into any of the subcategories. And quite often the bloodshed involved in the more controversial inclusions. And there are no pure pop musicians on this site who do not at least tangentially have some relationship to prog, or at one point, they were in fact prog artists who later went pop.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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jude111
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 20 2009
Location: Not Here
Status: Offline
Points: 1754
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Posted: March 15 2013 at 16:51 |
HarbouringTheSoul wrote:
This might be true if you are interested in establishing a definitive canon of 'respected' or 'established' works. Many "professional" critics seem to work that way, but I'd wager that the average music listener couldn't care less. He listens to what he likes and ignores the rest. I consider the canonization of any kind of art (not just music) beyond personal best-of lists to be a rather futile exercise that has little practical value. Whenever I hear phrases like" 1001 albums you must hear before you die", I feel like smashing something.
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 I know what you mean, it's gone beyond ridiculous.
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jude111
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 20 2009
Location: Not Here
Status: Offline
Points: 1754
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Posted: March 15 2013 at 16:56 |
sorcerer kermes wrote:
Lady Gaga is not a prog artist but im sure she will get a high rating here! if you dont believe it try it and add her as a prog artist!
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Well, Bad Romance is a helluva song! Energetic, addictive, evocative and exotic. A perfect pop song. I don't know a lot about Lady Gaga (except that my wife likes her music and often plays it), but I have the impression she's a bit avant garde and more of a performance artist that a strict pop idol, who somehow crossed over and enjoyed mainstream success...?
Edited by jude111 - March 15 2013 at 16:59
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sorcerer kermes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2008
Location: Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 102
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Posted: March 15 2013 at 17:03 |
some of non prog artists for you:
Muse , Steve Vai , Blackfield , Yngwie Malmsteen , Metallica , Iron Maiden ...
yes they are not Gaga but not prog too
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: March 15 2013 at 17:06 |
sorcerer kermes wrote:
some of non prog artists for you:
Muse , Steve Vai , Blackfield , Yngwie Malmsteen , Metallica , Iron Maiden ...
yes they are not Gaga but not prog too
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Which is why they are in Prog Related. Related is the key word. But I'd argue that Maiden are Prog Metal, especially with some of the more recent albums. Metallica a definite influence on prog Metal.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 15 2013 at 17:09 |
sorcerer kermes wrote:
some of non prog artists for you:
Muse , Steve Vai , Blackfield , Yngwie Malmsteen , Metallica , Iron Maiden ...
yes they are not Gaga but not prog too
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If Gaga recorded a Prog album would she be Prog?
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What?
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sorcerer kermes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2008
Location: Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 102
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Posted: March 15 2013 at 17:16 |
Snow Dog wrote:
sorcerer kermes wrote:
some of non prog artists for you:
Muse , Steve Vai , Blackfield , Yngwie Malmsteen , Metallica , Iron Maiden ...
yes they are not Gaga but not prog too
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Which is why they are in Prog Related. Related is the key word. But I'd argue that Maiden are Prog Metal, especially with some of the more recent albums. Metallica a definite influence on prog Metal. |
i think you should put many classical composers, jazz and blues musicians , and even folk adn world music artists here because somehow they are related to prog! for start i suggest : Bach , BB King , Chopin , Frank Sinatra , Dave Brubeck
Edited by sorcerer kermes - March 15 2013 at 17:21
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Points: 32995
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Posted: March 15 2013 at 17:18 |
Some acts are more related than others.
Edited by Snow Dog - March 15 2013 at 17:19
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Argonaught
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 04 2012
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 1413
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Posted: March 15 2013 at 18:24 |
sorcerer kermes wrote:
i think you should put many classical composers,
jazz and blues musicians , and even folk adn world music artists here because
somehow they are related to prog! 
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If you consider the actual meaning of the word "progressive"
(related to innovation and improvements), almost none of the newer
"prog"-branded bands would ever fit the definition.
Wilson has certainly not improved much with his last album. It’s
just a well-played and artfully arranged/recorded/mastered collection of rather
average and conventional music.
Even the outstanding Luminol, which is certainly a progress for
Steve Wilson personally, is hardly progressive for the musical history in
general – it’s a pleasant sliver of slow symph (in circulation since 1960’s),
sandwiched between two slices of energetic jazz fusion (known and loved for 4 decades).
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Kashmir75
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 25 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1029
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Posted: March 15 2013 at 18:52 |
I support the inclusion of Metallica, Iron Maiden, etc, here. Their work is very progressive (at least, Metallica's 80s stuff was). Maiden have been getting much more progressive with their more recent albums.
Some people's definition of 'prog' is very narrow. Personally, I don't really find bands like Transatlantic or the Flower Kings very progressive. They just regurgitate old 70s motifs. Is some of their music enjoyable? Sure. But it's hardly 'progressive'. It's 'regressive'.
I think what Steven Wilson does is progressive. There's clearly influence from King Crimson and Jethro Tull and other 70s greats, but he adds a modern flavour to it, a touch of alternative rock. It's prog, but its 21st century prog, not 70s prog.
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Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: March 15 2013 at 21:12 |
Guldbamsen wrote:
The problem about the whole thing though is the fact that most people don't necessarily use those terms in the correct manner. It looses it's meaning by people slinging around phrases like David Gilmour is underrated, because they feel they love his work even more than others, and that folks should immediately start loving him even harder... |
I agree. The flip side is when one person doesn't like a band and he finds a bunch of people who do (but the band doesn't necessarily have a huge fan base or is not rated among the top echelons of prog), he calls the band overrated. I've heard people call Magma heavily overrated, which is quite ridiculous and can be inferred as simply a reaction to high praise from fans.
What is overrated or underrated should be determined with regard to its importance, impact and influence on its music scene of the time. Applying this test, we will find that most prog 'classics' are so called for a reason.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: March 15 2013 at 21:22 |
Lately, Wilson does seem to have a love affair with all things 70s, including the way they played their music, loose and improvised instead of the contemporary obsession with precision. With that told, as jude111 said, there are lots of prog artists who face this problem now. And if you contrast what infandous said with the OP, you can see the problem for musicians today. One side thinks he is not progressive enough while the other thinks he is not a true prog artist because he uses alternative rock elements. I am afraid our spread is not going to get particularly appetizing anytime soon if we continue to be slaves of taste. Taste is ok up to a point, but if the audience has no patience with adventure, the artists will gradually get boring too as they try to pander to the tastes of their fanbase for survival. And thereafter, you can call it prog or whatever else you like, but it is just entertainment (maybe entertainment for those who find commercial entertainment music offensive to their tastes, if you will) and has little significance in the larger scheme of things. What is the most Grace for Drowning is going to be remembered for? For reviving appreciation for 70s prog....probably not even that.
Edited by rogerthat - March 16 2013 at 00:17
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: March 15 2013 at 23:06 |
Kashmir75 wrote:
I support the inclusion of Metallica, Iron Maiden, etc, here. Their work is very progressive (at least, Metallica's 80s stuff was). Maiden have been getting much more progressive with their more recent albums.
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Even early in their career or in the 80s generally, Maiden had tracks like Transylvania or Seventh Son of a Seventh Son which are a lot closer to prog than some people care to admit. As for Metallica, pretty much the whole of AJFA as well as Orion are prog without a doubt. Even a track like Ride the Lightning is proggy. The only difference is the chromaticism of old Metallica disguises the number of twists in that track.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16574
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Posted: March 16 2013 at 11:35 |
The one that decides the word "Prog" comes before, or after, the name! Usually, by important, the main -- in this case "Prog" ... would always be in the front! So "Crossover Prog" would not be a good one, and in fact ... is one of the worst ... since EVERYONE cross over more than once!
Edited by moshkito - March 16 2013 at 11:35
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 16 2013 at 12:24 |
moshkito wrote:
The one that decides the word "Prog" comes before, or after, the name!
Usually, by important, the main -- in this case "Prog" ... would always be in the front! So "Crossover Prog" would not be a good one, and in fact ... is one of the worst ... since EVERYONE cross over more than once!
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So... the only subgenres that get it right by your formula would be Prog Folk, Prog Electronic, Prog Metal and Prog Related.
Oooooooo..kaaayyyeee....
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What?
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: March 16 2013 at 12:37 |
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Grind that axe........love it when a newbie arrives at PA to shred the format.
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Is Steven Wilson making Prog music?
