Scotland

Padraic wrote: My biggest issue is that Salmond is often unrealistic is how he thinks things are going to play out after a Yes vote.

If the vote goes 'no' I'd see this as an immediate end to Salmond's political career.

If the vote goes 'yes' & it all goes breasts up in a year or so, I'd also see this as the end of Salmond's political career, just a bit in the future...

How ya feeling Alex?



"Weeel, aboot this nairvous, actually, laddie the noo"

chopper wrote: Gerinski wrote: chopper wrote: Gerinski wrote: Should Cameron resign if the Yes wins? I don't see why, he's hardly responsible for Scotland wanting to split away (if indeed they do). I think many British could blame him for having underestimated that a Yes was a real possibility. He was overconfident that come the moment of truth Scots would not dear to split. It seems clear by now that that was a very big error of judgement which can cost a high price to Britain. Really? Do you have advance knowledge of the result then?

chopper wrote: Gerinski wrote: chopper wrote: Gerinski wrote: Should Cameron resign if the Yes wins? I don't see why, he's hardly responsible for Scotland wanting to split away (if indeed they do). I think many British could blame him for having underestimated that a Yes was a real possibility. He was overconfident that come the moment of truth Scots would not dear to split. It seems clear by now that that was a very big error of judgement which can cost a high price to Britain. Really? Do you have advance knowledge of the result then?

I have a question..

Out of interest, if the main driver for independence is the wish for self determination, would those who in principle support the Yes vote in Scotland, also support the seperatist movement in east Ukraine to rejoin the Russian federation?

It's not comparable I hear you say, but the unfortunate violence in Ukraine aside, it is the apparent wish of many east Ukrainians to leave the sphere of influence of the EU and enter into another union with Russia. In the case of Scotland they want to leave the sphere of influence of the UK and go and join the EU.

There are simularaties in principle between the two bids for 'independence' and neither, ironically will result in 'self determination' IMO.

lazland wrote: Oh, one more thought. How desperate have the Stay Together campaign gotten? Resurrecting the absolute worst Prime Minister the UK was ever unfortunate enough to be lumbered with to take over their campaign, that's how desperate. Gordon Bloody Brown. By God..........

I agree they are desperate, and I agree they have failed Scotland in the past on many levels. I therefore understand the desire for independence. I just don't think it has been thought through, costed out and approached rationally by the nationalists.

Blacksword wrote: I have a question.. Out of interest, if the main driver for independence is the wish for self determination, would those who in principle support the Yes vote in Scotland, also support the seperatist movement in east Ukraine to rejoin the Russian federation? It's not comparable I hear you say, but the unfortunate violence in Ukraine aside, it is the apparent wish of many east Ukrainians to leave the sphere of influence of the EU and enter into another union with Russia. In the case of Scotland they want to leave the sphere of influence of the UK and go and join the EU. There are simularaties in principle between the two bids for 'independence' and neither, ironically will result in 'self determination' IMO.

lazland wrote: Blacksword wrote: lazland wrote: Oh, one more thought. How desperate have the Stay Together campaign gotten? Resurrecting the absolute worst Prime Minister the UK was ever unfortunate enough to be lumbered with to take over their campaign, that's how desperate. Gordon Bloody Brown. By God.......... I agree they are desperate, and I agree they have failed Scotland in the past on many levels. I therefore understand the desire for independence. I just don't think it has been thought through, costed out and approached rationally by the nationalists. It hasn't. Salmond has brilliantly exploited nationalist emotional sentiment, together with the very true question, why be governed by that bunch of w**kers any more?

If they get independence we will immediately be asking to join them, either as a part of Scotland or a seperate country not ruled by 'w**kers' of a distinctly public school Oxbridge variety.

Freedom!

akamaisondufromage wrote: Laz Dont mince your words now tell us what you really think!

Blacksword wrote: I have a question.. Out of interest, if the main driver for independence is the wish for self determination, would those who in principle support the Yes vote in Scotland, also support the seperatist movement in east Ukraine to rejoin the Russian federation? It's not comparable I hear you say, but the unfortunate violence in Ukraine aside, it is the apparent wish of many east Ukrainians to leave the sphere of influence of the EU and enter into another union with Russia. In the case of Scotland they want to leave the sphere of influence of the UK and go and join the EU. There are simularaties in principle between the two bids for 'independence' and neither, ironically will result in 'self determination' IMO.

lazland wrote: Blacksword wrote: I have a question.. Out of interest, if the main driver for independence is the wish for self determination, would those who in principle support the Yes vote in Scotland, also support the seperatist movement in east Ukraine to rejoin the Russian federation? It's not comparable I hear you say, but the unfortunate violence in Ukraine aside, it is the apparent wish of many east Ukrainians to leave the sphere of influence of the EU and enter into another union with Russia. In the case of Scotland they want to leave the sphere of influence of the UK and go and join the EU. There are simularaties in principle between the two bids for 'independence' and neither, ironically will result in 'self determination' IMO. In principle, Andy, I support the right of groups of people and "nations" to have self determinations. I have always believed that governance at the lowest possible level is best, and I say this as a career civil servant of many years standing. When you are talking about the situation in Ukraine, this has been yet another monumental cock up by the people who "lead" us, by wilfully misunderstanding the Russian psyche, history, and, especially, its "glorious leader", a ravenous power seeker, if ever there was one. What has not helped, of course, is the fact that a pile of his cronies and crooks are almost singularly responsible for most of the dirty money entering our capital city and the terrible way property is being priced out of ordinary people's pockets. I do not, by the way, myself understand why the SNP, or my party, Plaid Cymru, are such ardent Europeans. Why on earth would you want to swap a remote, unaccountable, government for one even more remote, and most certainly a damned sight more unaccountable. Very strange, and, I think, something that will be a source of huge political and social tension in the new era of politics which is dawning.

Indeed, and the positions are fundamentally contradictory; the will for self determination and membership of the EU which should have always been nothing more than a trading block.

I think the SNP and Plaid Cymru are just afraid to be seen as Eurosceptic because the neo liberal establishment and its supportive media portray that position as racist. So, you have to ask what is to be actually gained by allowing politicians and beurocrats from other countries who you have not voted for to vote on laws in your country? What is the benefit and practical upshot to your society to allow that to happen? Power has been devolved to Scotland and Wales. Whether enough has been devolved is for the people of those countries to decide and negotiate with London, but what would happen after a Yes vote and joining the EU if many or even all of those powers were taken away in exchange for an EU policy portfolio? What would the reaction of the Scottish people be, bearing in mind independence is a one way street?

Would Salmond allow the people of Scotland a referendum on EU membership?