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jacksiedanny
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 05 2015
Location: Ontario
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Posted: February 07 2015 at 08:05 |
When I first got "Beat Goes On " lp, I was totally appalled and traded it off (for next to nothing) immediately. In my book their only good lp - one closest to prog - is Renaissance.
.....
Psych origionated out of Texas. Not the West Coast. I'm not going to argue it. (You never really stated so, still it should be made clear.)
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SteveG
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Posted: February 07 2015 at 09:53 |
^No argument here about The Beat Goes ON. However, it strikes me as strange that even used copies of the CD sell for ten dollars or more! Also, there's no cause to argue where Psychedelic rock originated. As your new to PA, I suggest you read my past posts in this thread on Psych pioneers The 13th Floor Elevators and The Moving Sidewalks, who both originated out of Texas. The same holds true for The Red Crayola, Lost and Found, and Bubble Puppy, who also hailed from Texas. I merely inferred that the 13th Floor Elevators were influential in turning the previously Folk oriented California Bay Area bands electric by there touring the area in 1966. How you interpreted anything other than that is not a mystery to me. That's usually the case when one member's post is taken out of context. It's a good idea not regard a single post as an all encompassing book or expose, but as an open ended conversation.
Edited by SteveG - February 07 2015 at 10:20
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SteveG
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Posted: February 07 2015 at 10:46 |
Was the greatest Psychedelic album ever made hijacked by the Prog?Dark Side of the Moon: Pink Floyd 1973. Dark Side Of the Moon by Pink Floyd is without a doubt the stoner classic of all time. And for good reason. It's many studio effects such as deft stereo panning coupled with sound effects such as a person running that's pursued by what appears to sound like a helicopter (which ends in a loud crash) along with infinite amounts of chiming clocks, a chinking cash register in addition to bizarre disembodied talking and madman laughs. That's not saying that the musical content is not stunning. Because it is. Breath, Time/Breath (reprise) and the Great Gig In the Sky are some of Floyd's musical high points. DSotM is listed in PA under the Psychedelic/Space Rock genre. What's strange to me as how few reviewers actually refer to the album as Psychedelic. (Kudos to those who did.) A masterpiece of Progressive Rock seems to be the catch phrase even as the Pysch effects mentioned above are clearly stated and remarked upon. Particularly the VCS3 effects for the song On The Run. To me, DSotM is a brilliant synthesis of progressive music and pyschedelia, and may be the last the Psych Rock album to spend years on the charts. A brilliant Prog album? Certainly! Just don't forget the bong. The creators of this album certainly didn't and I feel they would be lying if they said otherwise. Far out.
Edited by SteveG - February 07 2015 at 17:13
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jacksiedanny
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 05 2015
Location: Ontario
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Points: 193
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Posted: February 07 2015 at 10:52 |
Yep, even parts of The Doors started out in the folk scene.
Do you see anything psychelic in the first Jeff Airplane lp? I guess I did not: had an origional copy and traded it off fast. (There is some kinda rarity press on that first Jeff Airplane. I forget the story - and too lazy to look it up. Some sort of cover variation on the mono press, maybe???)
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20602
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Posted: February 07 2015 at 11:19 |
^No, The Jefferson Airplane Takes Off never left the runway for me. It, tellingly, was made up of Folk Rock love songs composed by Marty Balin prior to the group's formation.
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earlyprog
Collaborator
Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams
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Posted: February 07 2015 at 14:56 |
SteveG wrote:
As your new to PA, I suggest you read my past posts in this thread on Psych pioneers The 13th Floor Elevators and The Moving Sidewalks, ....
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SteveG, you lobbyist you.
You are a gain for PA
(I may regret saying that when I get sober.)
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20602
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Posted: February 07 2015 at 17:01 |
earlyprog wrote:
You are a gain for PA
(I may regret saying that when I get sober.) |
I better hug you back quickly then! And you're correct. I should have said the American pioneers of....ah, never mind.
Edited by SteveG - February 07 2015 at 17:03
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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KingCrInuYasha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 26 2010
Location: USA
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Points: 1281
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Posted: February 07 2015 at 18:19 |
SteveG wrote:
Why early American Prog sounds like this:... Taking the advice of both their manager/producer and a top record executive, The Vanilla Fudge made one the most bizarre outré albums of the late 1960s. Combining studio improvisation, sound collages, excepts of classical music, and short reworkings of Beatles songs into free form whole, all of this was interspersed with snippets of historical sound excerpts such as speeches by JFK and Hitler. The result of all this effort was the album The Beat Goes On. Vanilla Fudge: The Beat Goes On. As far out as you could get in 1968. Trashed by both critics and fans, it remains a black mark on the otherwise stellar work produced by Vanilla Fudge after the release of this debacle. ...
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I found that record at my local record store for five bucks. The second side is a pretentious attempt to imitate Frank Zappa, while a good chunk the first side is a silly, yet harmless, Disney-esque attempt to document the history of Western Music from Mozart to the Beatles. I think the first side had potential and had it been a bit more polished, it would have been one of their best pieces.
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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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jacksiedanny
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 05 2015
Location: Ontario
Status: Offline
Points: 193
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Posted: February 07 2015 at 20:34 |
Oh dearie, dearie me!
SteveG wrote:
Was the greatest Psychedelic album ever made hijacked by the Prog?
DSotM is listed in PA under the Psychedelic/Space Rock genre. What's strange to me as how few reviewers actually refer to the album as Psychedelic. (Kudos to those who did.) A masterpiece of Progressive Rock seems to be the catch phrase even as the Pysch effects mentioned above are clearly stated and remarked upon. Particularly the VCS3 effects for the song On The Run. |
Stevie, now I have heard everything. True, pidgeonholing music is the domain of fools and habitues of music chat forums, but I cannot let this one pass. My good man, no doubt you have consummate good musical taste, but that does not obviate the sheer preposterousness of your claim here. For one to believe DSOM as being in any way psychedelic speaks of one not in full possession of one's clear faculties. I entreat you to shake off this mental fever and wish you every prospect of speedy recovery. DSOM is neither spacerock nor psychedelic. (Now, HAD you said something like "Careful With That Axe ,Eugene" was psychedelic, well....)
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KingCrInuYasha
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Joined: September 26 2010
Location: USA
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Points: 1281
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Posted: February 07 2015 at 21:37 |
jacksiedanny wrote:
...
DSOM is neither spacerock nor psychedelic.
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Three words: "On The Run"
Two more words: Cowboy Bebop
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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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LearsFool
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8642
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Posted: February 07 2015 at 22:13 |
KingCrInuYasha wrote:
jacksiedanny wrote:
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DSOM is neither spacerock nor psychedelic.
...
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Three words: "On The Run"
Two more words: Cowboy Bebop |
First truth, then awesomeness.
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jacksiedanny
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 05 2015
Location: Ontario
Status: Offline
Points: 193
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Posted: February 08 2015 at 08:30 |
Sound effects are mere technique that could be used to evolk psychedelic experience. In DSOM you are basically talking the short VCS3 segment and the short intro which IS dark & psychedelic in my opinion (BUT immediately goes into LAID BACK.)
To mimick a psychedelic (LSD) experience, sound manipulation/ studio tricks are much more important. To give an example: in Sergeant Pepper "Good Morning" is chock full of animal sound effects. Too bad its not psychedelic in the least - its the opposite: rather humerous. (Now if it were the sounds of animals in torment, like in a certain Jugoslavian lp, then maybe...) Now take "A Day In The Life". That IS powerful sound manipulation (and the ever-upward pitch is very suggestive of a trip high.)
Now technique-wise what IS important in mimicking a hallucinogenic experience is MOVEMENT OF SOUND because it is very important to stress DISORIENTATION. (Muffling, distorting of sound ,as well). Granted Parsons is good at this panning etc. BUT, equally important in this context is acheiving disorientation through COMPOSITION - specifically altering focus by quirky, ever-changing composition, surges, lurches, textural changes...break apart (and possible reforming) of conventional structure. Now, what is it we have with DSOM? A straight rocker -"Money" Two main pieces , "Breathe" and that track that follows "Money" (I forget the title now) that are gentle, light pop - nigh ballads. Such do nowise constitute psych, so nix a major part of the lp on this alone.
The other point - verbose lps do not make psych. Psych has little message. Put message in it and you have clear cerebral thought -which tripping is not about. Moreso Waters is at his usual here , PROSELYTIZING/PREACHING; telling us what to think - a definite no-no in freeform, self-unravelling-mind world of psych.
Speaking of freeform - compositionally-speaking, what is very important in suggesting expanding consciousness via music, is EXTENDED improvisation of which DSOM has basically none outside of the mind-floating-suggesting "Great Gig In The Sky" (which is not near enough for this purpose.) This is why jams and long electronic Schultzian-like things are conductive to psychedelic experience.
DSOM is carefully/highly CONSTRUCTED music, gentle vocal harmonies anorl- the antithesis of real psych (and I'm talking real psych - not Hollywood like Strawberry Alarmclock etc popsike.)
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
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Posted: February 08 2015 at 09:43 |
jacksiedanny wrote:
Now technique-wise what IS important in mimicking a hallucinogenic experience is MOVEMENT OF SOUND because it is very important to stress DISORIENTATION. (Muffling, distorting of sound ,as well). Granted Parsons is good at this panning etc. BUT, equally important in this context is acheiving disorientation through COMPOSITION - specifically altering focus by quirky, ever-changing composition, surges, lurches, textural changes...break apart (and possible reforming) of conventional structure. Now, what is it we have with DSOM? A straight rocker -"Money" Two main pieces , "Breathe" and that track that follows "Money" (I forget the title now) that are gentle, light pop - nigh ballads. Such do nowise constitute psych, so nix a major part of the lp on this alone.
The other point - verbose lps do not make psych. Psych has little message. Put message in it and you have clear cerebral thought -which tripping is not about. Moreso Waters is at his usual here , PROSELYTIZING/PREACHING; telling us what to think - a definite no-no in freeform, self-unravelling-mind world of psych.
Speaking of freeform - compositionally-speaking, what is very important in suggesting expanding consciousness via music, is EXTENDED improvisation of which DSOM has basically none outside of the mind-floating-suggesting "Great Gig In The Sky" (which is not near enough for this purpose.) This is why jams and long electronic Schultzian-like things are conductive to psychedelic experience.
DSOM is carefully/highly CONSTRUCTED music, gentle vocal harmonies anorl- the antithesis of real psych (and I'm talking real psych - not Hollywood like Strawberry Alarmclock etc popsike.)
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I agree that DSotM is not necessarily psychedelic; in fact, Floyd was leaving that realm altogether for more structured themes. Still, there are vestiges of psychedelia remaining in the album, and it is advantageous from a tripper's perspective to listen along to Waters' reveries, and it does take you a certain mind-altering place. You see, I disagree with your limited (and limiting) concept that psychedelia is merely freeform and chaotic, devoid of message, lyrical comment or "cerebral thought". To this I say nonsense. It really depends on where it is (or in this case, was) you are going with the trip. Painting a verbal picture and taking the listener to a certain place or time is a key aspect to some of the best psychedelic compositions. The thought that listening to "sounds of animals in torment" is a great way to trip is not my idea of a place mentally to be on a trip (having been there). Most folks where I come from didn't want nightmares on a trip; actually, forest solitude and a bit of musical accompaniment as an accelerator worked quite well. However, listen to Floyd's "Echoes" (a prime example of psychedelic space-rock) and you are transported to a bizarre and awesome Paleozoic ocean both through sound and lyrical suggestion (with the wet "ping" at the beginning setting the stage) -- the length of the song taking one through prehistoric seascapes and then the serendipitous return via lyrics mark a great psych composition. I suppose a few of The Doors' longer compositions would better fit into your idea of a chaotic trip, but the lyrics are still very strong and cerebrally engaging and/or disturbing ("You'll be dead in hell before I'm born" or "The only solution, isn't it amazing?" are stereotypical utterances of any number of trippers). Even the suite of songs that ends The Moody Blues' On the Threshold of a Dream ("Are You Sitting Comfortably", "The Dream", "Have You Heard") is a superb example of painting lyrical pictures and setting the stage for a trip (even though, I will admit, the song cycle is not necessarily psych in the strictest sense). It all depends, I suppose, on where you plan on going, and whether you want a "Psychotic Reaction". It seems you are more interested in categorizing psych into a very small record bin where only a few bands can put their albums (double albums, preferably, so as to separate the seeds).
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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KingCrInuYasha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 26 2010
Location: USA
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Points: 1281
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Posted: February 08 2015 at 09:52 |
Also, for a guy who hates it when people preach to others, jacksiedanny sure likes preaching.
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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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jacksiedanny
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 05 2015
Location: Ontario
Status: Offline
Points: 193
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Posted: February 08 2015 at 09:56 |
Sure do.
Im known as The Deacon on another forum.
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KingCrInuYasha
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Joined: September 26 2010
Location: USA
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Points: 1281
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Posted: February 08 2015 at 10:02 |
I would call you a hypocrite, but considering that I've probably been guilty of preaching at some point in my life, such a claim would be rendered null and void. I guess it's human nature.
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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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jacksiedanny
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 05 2015
Location: Ontario
Status: Offline
Points: 193
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Posted: February 08 2015 at 10:08 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
However, listen to Floyd's "Echoes" (a prime example of psychedelic space-rock) and you are transported to a bizarre and awesome Paleozoic ocean both through sound and lyrical suggestion (with the wet "ping" at the beginning setting the stage) -- the length of the song taking one through prehistoric seascapes
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I agree. And the key word here is "suggestion" - I mean, the meaning is murky, no? .......... For myself Floyd were at their psychedelic peak with Ummagumma, especially the live side which is good old rambles and improv. What few lyrics there are are Mallarme-esque - which is to say, less to do with meaning than with sound; how it flows melliflously off the lips. I mean...how does the line go?(Astrominie Dominie): "Lime and limpid ..." What's it MEAN exactly? Do I even care? No - I'm tripping!
Edited by jacksiedanny - February 08 2015 at 10:10
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dr wu23
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Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
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Points: 20619
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Posted: February 08 2015 at 10:21 |
SteveG wrote:
Also, there's no cause to argue where Psychedelic rock originated. As your new to PA, I suggest you read my past posts in this thread on Psych pioneers The 13th Floor Elevators and The Moving Sidewalks, who both originated out of Texas. The same holds true for The Red Crayola, Lost and Found, and Bubble Puppy, who also hailed from Texas. I merely inferred that the 13th Floor Elevators were influential in turning the previously Folk oriented California Bay Area bands electric by there touring the area in 1966.
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That's an eye opener to me since I had always assumed it originated on the West Coast around San Fran or LA with the mixture of drugs and revolutionary ideas. I would not have thought of Texas for obvious reasons... being such a conservative state , uh... politically. But then I was obviously mistaken. Regarding psych, space rock , prog...it's the same argument (and over analysis..?) all over the place once again. These things are very subjective in how one interprets some albums and band styles. DSOTM is an example of this in that I never thought of it as psych or prog or space rock when I bought it and we played it on our turntables in the dorm at college. It was Pink Floyd.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20602
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Posted: February 08 2015 at 12:42 |
jacksiedanny wrote:
Oh dearie, dearie me!
SteveG wrote:
Was the greatest Psychedelic album ever made hijacked by the Prog?
DSotM is listed in PA under the Psychedelic/Space Rock genre. What's strange to me as how few reviewers actually refer to the album as Psychedelic. (Kudos to those who did.) A masterpiece of Progressive Rock seems to be the catch phrase even as the Pysch effects mentioned above are clearly stated and remarked upon. Particularly the VCS3 effects for the song On The Run. |
Stevie, now I have heard everything.
True, pidgeonholing music is the domain of fools and habitues of music chat forums, but I cannot let this one pass.
My good man, no doubt you have consummate good musical taste, but that does not obviate the sheer preposterousness of your claim here. For one to believe DSOM as being in any way psychedelic speaks of one not in full possession of one's clear faculties. I entreat you to shake off this mental fever and wish you every prospect of speedy recovery.
DSOM is neither spacerock nor psychedelic.
(Now, HAD you said something like "Careful With That Axe ,Eugene" was psychedelic, well....)
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Do you think that the PA admin does not know who you are? You keep resurfacing with a new identity about every 6 months. I don't believe you'll be around much longer, at least in this guise, so I'll give something that you can learn from for a change. The post that you pompously commented on is called a satire. I will spell it for you so that you can look up it's meaning and actually improve yourself. Ready? S-A-T-I-R-E. Done. That should keep you busy for a few weeks. Cheers.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20602
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Posted: February 08 2015 at 12:47 |
KingCrInuYasha wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Why early American Prog sounds like this:... Taking the advice of both their manager/producer and a top record executive, The Vanilla Fudge made one the most bizarre outré albums of the late 1960s. Combining studio improvisation, sound collages, excepts of classical music, and short reworkings of Beatles songs into free form whole, all of this was interspersed with snippets of historical sound excerpts such as speeches by JFK and Hitler. The result of all this effort was the album The Beat Goes On. Vanilla Fudge: The Beat Goes On. As far out as you could get in 1968. Trashed by both critics and fans, it remains a black mark on the otherwise stellar work produced by Vanilla Fudge after the release of this debacle. ...
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I found that record at my local record store for five bucks. The second side is a pretentious attempt to imitate Frank Zappa, while a good chunk the first side is a silly, yet harmless, Disney-esque attempt to document the history of Western Music from Mozart to the Beatles. I think the first side had potential and had it been a bit more polished, it would have been one of their best pieces. |
I not a personal hater of The Beat Goes On as I, like you, feel that's it's execution was clumsy and not well thought out. (Most of the bands' music and studio chatter was adlibbed on the spot.) I was merely reporting it's overall reception by a wide majority critics and fans at the time of it's release. Jon Anderson in particular actually likes many aspects of the album. But he never states that he likes all of it either.
I almost forgot to add that the Zappa imitation is most telling and is another reason early American Prog sounds like this: Aside from Zappa's direct influence on this particular album by Capt. Beefheart, the Zappa "sound" left an influence on groups like the The Red Crayola and the previously mentioned Vanilla Fudge.
Edited by SteveG - February 08 2015 at 15:04
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