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Flucktrot 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 01 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 164
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 Posted: July 16 2015 at 20:13 |
Ivan, this became absurd a long time ago when you made clear your inability, or unwillingness, to see other views or interpretations of Neal's work with your elaborate (and inaccurate) criticize vs. insult position a few pages ago. We can all listen to Neal without supporting bigotry...what I supported here, I've clearly realized at this point, was only some naive close-mindedness and prog snobbery, which is really my fault for not identifying it sooner.
I just read the original post, and the OP was not asking for a microscopic critique of Sola Scriptura, but rather a broader discussion of how to appreciate Morse even if you don't enjoy the lyrics. I'm not sure if those who just think Neal is a turd, like a few folks here, can really contribute to that discussion. Apologies to the OP for forgetting that, and I'm done with any more of this sideshow.
Now...I never got to the main point!
Neal's "holy trinity" for me is ?, One, and Sola, as all three just have better arrangements, better guest stars, and I think they are generally on par with V....I like both of the Testimonies, but I pick out the best parts and really only listen to those parts frequently. Unfortunately, Neal is really running on fumes the last few years in my opinion, Transatlantic included...they just don't sound as "inspired" to me, although I still enjoy them as well and don't regret buying them.
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Thank you, God of Rock, for this chance to kick ass
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: July 16 2015 at 21:41 |
 Flucktrot wrote:
Ivan, this became absurd a long time ago when you made clear your inability, or unwillingness, to see other views or interpretations of Neal's work with your elaborate (and inaccurate) criticize vs. insult position a few pages ago. We can all listen to Neal without supporting bigotry...what I supported here, I've clearly realized at this point, was only some naive close-mindedness and prog snobbery, which is really my fault for not identifying it sooner. |
1.- The one who has a complete inability to difference between criticism are you, so I will give you examples
a) Criticism
- The Catholic Church is wrong because salvation is by faith alone and not for acts (Even when I believe salvation is product of faith ad/or acts))
- The catholic Church is wrong because they believe in transubstantiation (I believe in transubstantiation, but this would be criticism)
This is criticism, and even when I disagree, would say nothing.
b) Insult
- The Catholic Church is a harlot
- The saints are Roman Gods
- Everything that comes from the catholic Church is blood
That's insult, and that's what Morse said...Pure bigotry and that I won't accept
If you can't undestand that, then the problem is your's
2.- NEVER SAID THAT IF YOU LISTEN NEAL MORSE YOU ARE SUPPORTING BIGOTRY that's a straw man's fallacy,m you are ionventing something I never said to make my statements seem invalid
You are supporting bigotry if you suppoort Morse's bigot statements and insults
Flucktrot wrote:
I just read the original post, and the OP was not asking for a microscopic critique of Sola Scriptura, but rather a broader discussion of how to appreciate Morse even if you don't enjoy the lyrics. I'm not sure if those who just think Neal is a turd, like a few folks here, can really contribute to that discussion. Apologies to the OP for forgetting that, and I'm done with any more of this sideshow. |
That's what we call kicking-the-chessboard, you don't like the evidence, so you want to leave the issue and make me look as a troll who changes the subject
The subject is about:
- Morse lyrics - Your opinion about him
That's what we are talking about
I believe his lyrics are bigotry and he's a bigot.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 16 2015 at 21:43
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t d wombat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 14 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 504
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Posted: July 16 2015 at 21:45 |
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Oh deary deary me .... I fear we have just entered Four Fox's Lake territory but it's Onward Heathen Soldiers for me and into the fray we leap.
Mate you are nothing but an apologist for the Catholic church. There is no real depth to your argument, all you want is to get your knickers in a twist should someone so much as sniff in a derisary fashion Vaticanward. Simply because I f..k sheep does not excuse you f..king goats.
Yes cleaning. Cleaning up an establishment that was riddled with corruption and that routinely raised money though the sale of indulgences and on it goes.
So your cries re those nasty Protestants being just as bad as the papists falls on deaf ears. Did you not see the bit about me being agnostic/atheist ? A pox on all the houses of the holy. That the Protestants killed maimed and tortured may well be the truth but that does not in any way shape or form excuse the Papists from doing the same and doing it first.
Look, I am sure you will continue to blather on about me being somehow or other pro Lutheran, have at it son, have at it but it is nonsense. I hold no more truck with the Protestants than I do the Papists. You all love your sky pixies, I think it is utter nonsense from start to finish. Krishna,Yhwh, Zeus, Ra whoever. Complete and utter bollocks.
As I said, all I was trying to do was inject an element of even handedness. That seemingly you will not permit. Your choice but it shows you are no less a fanatic than those you call the same.
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Andrew B
“Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” ― Julius Henry Marx
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: July 16 2015 at 22:45 |
t d wombat wrote:
Oh deary deary me .... I fear we have just entered Four Fox's Lake territory but it's Onward Heathen Soldiers for me and into the fray we leap.
Mate you are nothing but an apologist for the Catholic church. There is no real depth to your argument, all you want is to get your knickers in a twist should someone so much as sniff in a derisary fashion Vaticanward. Simply because I f..k sheep does not excuse you f..king goats.
Yes cleaning. Cleaning up an establishment that was riddled with corruption and that routinely raised money though the sale of indulgences and on it goes.
So your cries re those nasty Protestants being just as bad as the papists falls on deaf ears. Did you not see the bit about me being agnostic/atheist ? A pox on all the houses of the holy. That the Protestants killed maimed and tortured may well be the truth but that does not in any way shape or form excuse the Papists from doing the same and doing it first. |
I'm only defending my position from the attacks of a bigot (Morse)
But also from people who don't know the historical facts.
I never say nasty Protestants, I'm just mentioning historical facts that I can support one by one, I have the most of respects for people's beliefs, but respecting doesn't imply to keep silence on historical facts, as historical as Inquisition and Crusades which are always mentioned.
t d wombat wrote:
Look, I am sure you will continue to blather on about me being somehow or other pro Lutheran, have at it son, have at it but it is nonsense. I hold no more truck with the Protestants than I do the Papists. You all love your sky pixies, I think it is utter nonsense from start to finish. Krishna,Yhwh, Zeus, Ra whoever. Complete and utter bollocks. |
I don't know or care what you believe in. That's your right.
But you were defending an act of bigotry and justifying it.
t d wombat wrote:
As I said, all I was trying to do was inject an element of even handedness. That seemingly you will not permit. Your choice but it shows you are no less a fanatic than those you call the same. |
You are supporting a musician who uses his position to insult the beliefs of others.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 16 2015 at 23:22
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: July 16 2015 at 23:10 |
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cool debate
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: July 16 2015 at 23:15 |
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Yeah, I guess the point is Morse is levelling all these insults as a religious evangelist himself. If his own creed is not entirely blameless best to at least moderate the language. To heap vitriol even as he invites listeners to a la la land himself IS bigoted. I am not even sure how it can be argued otherwise. I could understand the tone of his criticisms if he was staunchly atheist. He's not. I guess some people here are just overly anxious to defend an artist's right to express himself. I say he is free to write what he desires and free to get called out on it as well. If you don't want to hear a word against him then open the thread in the appreciation forum.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Points: 19557
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Posted: July 16 2015 at 23:26 |
rogerthat wrote:
Yeah, I guess the point is Morse is levelling all these insults as a religious evangelist himself. If his own creed is not entirely blameless best to at least moderate the language. To heap vitriol even as he invites listeners to a la la land himself IS bigoted. I am not even sure how it can be argued otherwise. I could understand the tone of his criticisms if he was staunchly atheist. He's not. I guess some people here are just overly anxious to defend an artist's right to express himself. I say he is free to write what he desires and free to get called out on it as well. If you don't want to hear a word against him then open the thread in the appreciation forum. |
You know something, my oldest friends are atheists (one of them really Agnostic), but they never insulted my beliefs.
Insulting is a sign of insecurity, if you are sure of what you believe or don't believe, you don't need to attack anybody.
BTW: As you I can't understand how this can be denied, but more important, I don't know how people can't find the difference between criticism and insult.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: July 16 2015 at 23:36 |
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Indeed. I too am indifferent to the issue. If myths are taught in place of science in school, I will raise my voice. Otherwise...it's really not my business.
Religion is a personal choice and far be it for me to interfere.
Edited by rogerthat - July 16 2015 at 23:38
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: July 16 2015 at 23:51 |
rogerthat wrote:
Indeed. I too am indifferent to the issue. If myths are taught in place of science in school, I will raise my voice. Otherwise...it's really not my business.
Religion is a personal choice and far be it for me to interfere. |
I'm a religious person, but agree with you.
Religion must not be taken a science.
There's a religion class (at least in my country), and a science class, each one has it's place and purpose.
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Disparate Times
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 12 2015
Location: Rust belt
Status: Offline
Points: 261
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 00:13 |
timothy leary wrote:
cool debate |
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 02:57 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I never say nasty Protestants, I'm just mentioning historical facts that I can support one by one, I have the most of respects for people's beliefs, but respecting doesn't imply to keep silence on historical facts, as historical as Inquisition and Crusades which are always mentioned.
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That's the proper way to say it and I very much appreciate that you say it like that. My church, the protestant church, also has its black pages and they should be mentioned as well. The Hollywood picture of Luther (from Eric Till) shows him as someone who abhors violence, which is of course falsification of history. A bit of a missed chance, really. A more realistic picture would have been more fruitful for our understanding of the historic development of theology as well as our understanding of history.
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 02:58 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Indeed. I too am indifferent to the issue. If myths are taught in place of science in school, I will raise my voice. Otherwise...it's really not my business.
Religion is a personal choice and far be it for me to interfere. |
I'm a religious person, but agree with you.
Religion must not be taken a science.
There's a religion class (at least in my country), and a science class, each one has it's place and purpose.
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Correct, the problems arise when they are mixed.
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AlanB
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 19 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 1230
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 04:10 |
Wow, this thread has really taken off hasn't it? I log on in the morning and there are multiple postings to read through, pretty much all concerned with the lyrics of one album. So can I put my two pennyworth in? I don't see hatred in the lyrics of Sola Scriptura, and certainly not towards the present day Roman Catholic Church. The criticism is levelled against the corrupt medieval church, and against any church today that goes against the Word of God. The language used (harlot, Babylon, dragon etc) is lifted from the Book of Revelation. In fact the whole album is predicated on an interpretation of Revelation chapter 12, where a woman and child are pursued into the desert by a dragon, and this period lasts 1260 days. Exponents of this interpretation claim that the Bishop of Rome held political power over Europe from the fall of the Roman Empire to an edict of Napoleon removing the Pope's political power - this period is said to have lasted from 538 AD to 1798 AD - a period of 1260 years. This is where Sola Scriptura's lyrics are coming from. Now, going back further in history, the Christian religion went from being a persecuted sect to the state religion after the conversion of the Emperor Constantine. There is an argument made by some that the church incorporated some of the pagan beliefs at that time in order to make the change from a pantheistic belief system to a monotheistic one. The assimilation of the Roman feast of Saturnalia as the Christian festival of Christmas is an obvious one. Another is the replacement of the Roman Gods with saints who can intercede with God on behalf of people on Earth. This idea is not in the Bible, in fact the Bible states that there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. Purgatory is another concept that you won't find in the Bible, but its addition to church doctrine proved a useful money raising tactic in the Middle Ages when people could reduce their time there by buying indulgences. It is this sort of thing that Morse is railing against in Sola Scriptura, and when you understand the basis in Revelation which he is starting from, you can understand why he is using such language. As an Evangelical Protestant I obviously share Morse's world view, but there is one concern that I have. He includes the doctrine of the Trinity in his list of doctrines which came out of the "false church" of the Middle Ages, and rejects that idea too. This came out in interviews which he did around the time of Sola's release, and it does disturb some Christians who otherwise admire his music and lyrics. Finally, regarding Luther's anti-Semitism, Morse is on record as saying that he was made aware of this during the recording of Sola, and actually considered pulling the whole project because of it. I think this is referred to in the liner notes, but as I only have a download I'm not 100% sure of that.
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Friday13th
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 30 2013
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Points: 284
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 08:44 |
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Both purgatory and praying to heavenly mediators are found in the 2 books of the Maccabees from the Catholic Bible, but I believe there is good reason those books shouldn't be canon. Let's not turn this into a theology discussion though. I'm not Catholic, but Catholics do have reasons for their beliefs and most are arguably biblical (sacred tradition takes the rest).
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 09:50 |
Moogtron III wrote:
That's the proper way to say it and I very much appreciate that you say it like that. My church, the protestant church, also has its black pages and they should be mentioned as well. The Hollywood picture of Luther (from Eric Till) shows him as someone who abhors violence, which is of course falsification of history. A bit of a missed chance, really. A more realistic picture would have been more fruitful for our understanding of the historic development of theology as well as our understanding of history. |
Lets be honest, most of the violence in both churches was a product of a violent era, a time when the plague, the wars, etc created tortured religious leaders who were pawns of the emeperors and princes.
There were more violent ones like Calvine (Who hated Luther as much as the Pope) or Zwingli, but all of them were manipulated by greedy rulers.
There was a lot of anti-semitism, but lets be honest, the only ones who got real benefit of the expulsion of the jews were kings with great debts who threw the Jews out of their territories to avoid paying what the owed.
The 1492 edict of expulsion is taught like a religious edict, but the truth was that Isabella and Ferdinand had economic reasons
And we likewise give license and faculty to those said Jews and Jewesses that they be able to export their goods and estates out of these our said kingdoms and lordships by sea or land as long as they do not export gold or silver or coined money or other things prohibited by the laws of our kingdoms, excepting merchandise and things that are not prohibited.
They owed money to the Jewish people, so they expelled them and kept their gold, silver and coins, they gave IOU's that were never paid, avoided paying and blamed the Church
I'm sure that part of the hatred of Luther was caused because he received pressure of the Germanic princes.
So churches always get the blame, but their leaders were used by greedy rulers.
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WeepingElf
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Joined: August 18 2013
Location: Germany
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Points: 373
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 10:36 |
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Let me chime in here.
As I see it, Sola Scriptura is a concept album about Martin Luther and his struggle against certain practices of the Roman Catholic Church of his days - practices such as the selling of indulgences that only a bigot now can deny that they were corrupt and abusive. It is much like a drama where the lines are in character - the strong language is the strong language used by the antagonists in the historical quarrel the album is about. Now, I am religiously unaligned (though from a Protestant background), yet I can appreciate the album even though it clearly takes sides in the case Luther vs. the Roman Catholic Church. It is a personal religious statement of Neal Morse, nothing more. A legitimate subject matter for a concept album, I think. My stance on the matter is different from Morse's - Luther had his failings, too - but I don't feel offended by this album at all.
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"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 10:46 |
Ok, sorry to break up all this up, but I'm curious to know how many Christian believers know of the true origins of the Christian faith such as a parallel church in Jerusalem run by Jesus's brother James, the entire esoteric Christian gnostic movement and it's persecution, and the insane debate between Catholic Christians and the Christian Arians who contested if Christ was indeed 'of one substance' with the father. Knowing the entire story casts this religion, like all others, in a different light.
Edited by SteveG - July 17 2015 at 13:31
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terramystic
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005
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Points: 781
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 11:30 |
Moogtron III wrote:
I wish that the ecumenical path would be taken more often.In my (small) city, as the pastor of the protestant church, I'm head of the city council of churches. That council includes the Roman-Catholic church, the protestant church, the Roman-Catholic ecumenical Focolare movement and an evangelical congregation. Together we come in each others' church services, we do diaconal projects together, we respect each other in each other's traditions. And we learn from each other. |
 I miss more of this ecumenical spirit between churches.
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terramystic
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Points: 781
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 11:38 |
Friday13th wrote:
Anyways, for anyone asking for Neal Morse suggestions I would suggest Sola Scriptura as his best as it is the the most complex, heavy, and ambitious.
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I'm a catholic and I forgive Neal Morse for lyrics in Sola Scriptura but I couldn't get into the music either. It's exhausting for my ears. Too much heaviness and hyperactivity. My top NM albums: 1. Testimony 2. Lifeline I also like some parts of One, ? and Testimony 2 (especially the epic song).
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dr wu23
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Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
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Points: 20696
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 12:36 |
SteveG wrote:
Ok, sorry to break up all this a up, but I'm curious to know how many Christian believers know of the true origins of the Christian faith such as a parallel church in Jerusalem run by Jesus's brother James, the entire esoteric Christian gnostic movement and it's persecution, and the insane debate between Catholic Christians and the Christian Arians who contested if Christ was indeed 'of one substance' with the father. Knowing the entire story casts this religion, like all others, in a different light. |
Some good points you brought up there regarding origins.....and who or what is the authentic 'Church'. Will the real Christianity please stand up?
ps: does this have anything to do with Morse and his mediocre solo albums..?
Edited by dr wu23 - July 17 2015 at 12:36
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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