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Supertramp/Steely Dan Again: Try Again/Do It Again
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Poll Question: Which of these songs do you prefer?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
14 [32.56%]
29 [67.44%]
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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Points: 9869 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2018 at 03:44
"That is why when Yes put out 90125 they did not lose  or alienate their 70's fans, unlike Genesis or groups of that ilk."  

To be fair, the so called 'pop' of 90125 was still essentially AOR territory and maybe somewhat more palatable for prog rock fans for that reason.  The same way that prog fans put up with Asia.  Genesis had a pop element in the manner of say Beatles from the beginning but they jumped headlong into 80s dance pop and that split their fanbase (but also gaining many more new fans for them).  Not unlike Metallica going curdy from Black Album onwards (and especially so with Load).  After the even more ambitious and technical And Justice After All (vis a vis MOP), Black was the last thing fans would have expected from Metallica.
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

While not as catchy, I find the Supertramp song memorable, and it has a groove especially in the instrumental part that really gets to me in a great way. Maybe that it's not as memorable is not a negative for me. It's a song that I could play over and over again (like with "Moon in June" by Soft Machine, although perhaps that's more memorable). One might say that it's Supertramp before they discovered a more commercial route.
It wasnīt long a go when one of my friend recommended me Supertramp first album. I havenīt listened the whole band at all before that. I really started to love whole album immediately, it is quite dark, also really minimalistic, anyway great music I have loved specially my older days. I listened after that their later albums, but I think theyīre much more commercial, love that first one much more.

About Steely Dan, never listened it really much just the reason I havenīt ever understood whatīs so great about that band. Itīs ok seventies stuff, nothing more. And really donīt like their later, sterile albums with many studio musicians at all.
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Do It Again is memorable; Try Again is not. It was Supertramp before Supertramp figured out who they were.

Exactly so I voted Steely Dan this round 
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

well said...  I think Countdown is a FABULOUS album with not a weak song on it but agree...  it was Pretzel Logic when we got the quintessential SD.

Katy Lied however will forever be my favorite Dan album...

I love Katy Lied too.  But then, I love Gaucho as well which for some reason gets a bad rap. If you embrace the Pretzel formula, it's hard to dislike any of the albums that came after it which were all, I would argue, refinements and improvements on it, with more of a smooth jazz bias on Aja/Gaucho (and also Nightfly).

or Morph the Cat... oh god I love having any excuse to post this video!!!
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Points: 39080 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2018 at 21:32
^^ No worries, rogerthat, various Bach is indeed often lifted from a lot, and Toccata and Fugue in D minor gets adapted a lot, like with Tubular Bells.

Maybe Eminem did it best: ;)




Edited by Logan - July 21 2018 at 21:33
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

well said...  I think Countdown is a FABULOUS album with not a weak song on it but agree...  it was Pretzel Logic when we got the quintessential SD.

Katy Lied however will forever be my favorite Dan album...

I love Katy Lied too.  But then, I love Gaucho as well which for some reason gets a bad rap. If you embrace the Pretzel formula, it's hard to dislike any of the albums that came after it which were all, I would argue, refinements and improvements on it, with more of a smooth jazz bias on Aja/Gaucho (and also Nightfly).
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rogerthat View Drop Down
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By the way, you are right, it's Toccata.  Don't know why I said Brandenburg, lol.
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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Its been sampled/ lifted by a few. I can understand that, there are various bands that have lifted classical music where I have thought less of them because of it.


I don't mind the sampling - heck knows plenty of Tull is just one long Bach composition - but there is nothing artful - to me - about the way Supertramp use it here.  It's almost like they didn't know where to take the guitar lead and decided to finish with a Bach quote.
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Points: 46843 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2018 at 21:14
well said...  I think Countdown is a FABULOUS album with not a weak song on it but agree...  it was Pretzel Logic when we got the quintessential SD.

Katy Lied however will forever be my favorite Dan album...
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Its been sampled/ lifted by a few. I can understand that, there are various bands that have lifted classical music where I have thought less of them because of it. I think they sampled this.



Edited by Logan - July 21 2018 at 21:16
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Try Again is a good summation imo of why Supertramp didn't often foray into prog and usually didn't achieve much success with it. It isn't just about the length, right?  There need to be interesting changes going on.  I thought this was harmonically and texturally pretty boring and when a straight up Brandenburg Concerto quote came long, I got pretty pissed off. LOL  And unlike Genesis, they don't go all out proggy. They are trying to keep up some rock-like momentum here, for instance.  But all it does is rob the song of the stop/start, soft/loud/everything else in between dynamics that make prog interesting.  Interestingly, they achieved all these qualities operating in a traditional verse/chorus format on Crime of the Century. I would say in some ways Crime...anticipated Wall, you know Floyd with heavier and more menacing riffs but the contrasts Supertramp achieved in songs like Asylum or Rudy, especially by playing off the different styles of their vocalists, were even more interesting than on Wall.  

But back to this song, no, for me, it doesn't stand a chance against the iconic Do It Again.  However, for anybody actually wanting to get into Steely Dan, I would say ignore the mainstream consensus in favour of Can't Buy A Thrill and go for Royal Scam.  Or Pretzel Logic.  For me, Steely Dan really starts in right earnest with Countdown to Ecstasy and Pretzel is the first quintessential Dan album.
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Points: 46843 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:44
yeah but prog elitist and forum meat heads don't like hearing that kind of stuff so don't go repeating it...  pop is for simple minded folk.. prog for special types to revel in their superior tastes along with big heads and kids living in mama's basement with no girlfriends.
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I should, but I sometimes get forgetful these days and need reminding (had a stroke some time back that affected my memory, but it's improving).

That again makes perfect sense. They started pop and never left it.
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Points: 46843 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:28
you should then know my feelings...  Yes were always a pop band.. so what happened in the 80's was no graet U turn. That is why when Yes put out 90125 they did not lose  or alienate their 70's fans, unlike Genesis or groups of that ilk.  Yes never swayed from their formula, became a different band or did a stylistic 180... only tweaked it with 80's styles. 

As I've noted in other threads. Close to the Edge was nothing more than an 18 minute long pop song. The band was started under the premise of merging pop hooks and killer melodies and harmonies with instrumentalfirepower.

They never were an art band...  look no further than Jon's lyrics.   Probably the least intellectual of all the great prog bands. 


Edited by micky - July 21 2018 at 20:29
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Points: 39080 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:21
Right, I know your feelings well on bands such as Genesis. This might sound like a stupid question, but do you feel the same way with Yes? I think they were great with their early pop (or poppy) songs, but not so good with the later ones, and I think they suffered from a certain malady called progitis. I'd also include ELP, I think they were best when doing more pop music in their early days and I tend to find the really prog stuff overblown. Genesis for me was best on The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway.

Edited by Logan - July 21 2018 at 20:22
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Points: 46843 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:07
oh don't get me wrong...  I like Supertramp... but I also consider everything they did up their masterpiece, Breakfast in America, to be patchy and sort of ehhh..  much like Genesis.. too much f**king around trying to be arty, intellectual and proggy and just let out the pop genius and be done with it.  True greats like the Dan could be those, few though can be.

now put that against the best of Dan..and you'll have a tough poll...
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Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

oh I wasn't poking at your poll choices.. just the notion Do It Again was the best on the album.  

well maybe I was in my own little way.  Comparing Steely Dan to Supertramp is like comparing fellatio to castration.


Fair enough. Or a castrato fellating a Steely Dan (guess the fans here know what a Steely Dan is in Naked Lunch) -- Hodgson's vocals are too high for various people's liking. I really like the instrumental in Try Again -- if you haven't listened to it for a while, maybe you should. Anyway, time to put on some other bluesy music, going with the Allman Brothers.
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Points: 46843 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2018 at 20:01
yeah...  I saw that.. but posted mainly for the Skunk sighting. Next to Jack Casady.. perhaps the coolest cat to ever grace any rock band.
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Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Do It Again is memorable; Try Again is not. It was Supertramp before Supertramp figured out who they were.

Sums it up beautifully.
Yes, I couldn't say it better myself.
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Points: 13443 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2018 at 19:58
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

great song from the Dan but not even the best song from that album.

Voted one of the greatest rock solos and one of Jimmy Pages favorites...



oh the poll...

pffff...

Great band, but that was one of the worst jobs of miming I've ever seen.
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