Help me understand krautrock and canterbury |
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Atavachron
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Don't let genre names distract you-- Krautrock is just prog from Germany, and as far as Canterbury goes, you have to find the prog elements that interest you. National Health would be a good place to start. |
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14242 |
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I thought so, too, but looking more into the classifications, actually that's not true. I checked this when looking for things to recommend. There are many prog bands from Germany that are classified elsewhere, Eloy, Grobschnitt, Novalis, Hoelderlin, Anyone's Daughter, Tangerine Dream, just to name a few. And although I didn't contribute to any of these classifications, I think there are good reasons for this. "Kraut", I'd say, stands for freedom, experimentation, and improvisation in the tradition of the late 60s/early 70s music communes of which Amon Düül is the prime example. There is a lot of free form in the earlier works. Later it's bands that picked up Kraut elements like the rhythm orientation of Can. There is also some minimalism to be found as in Neu, Cluster and La Duesseldorf, anyway much of this music is less "composed" and more organically developed than other prog genres (although some such as Amon Düül II got into more conventional/"composed" song formats later). The genre was meant to have a proper musical meaning beyond "being German" and I think it does. (And given the list of favourites in the first posting, I can well understand why these bands are more difficult for the poster to get into than, say, Eloy or Anyone's Daughter.)
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Raff
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Sorry, David, I don't agree at all. "True" Krautrock is characterized by a very high level of experimentation, which in some cases goes beyond even what you would find labeled as RIO/Avant. Though I cannot call myself an expert, I have been involved in the latest installment of the Romantic Warriors documentary series - the first part of a trilogy dedicated to Krautrock - and that has given me a much deeper insight into this "subgenre". In fact, some Krautrock bands have more in common with post-punk/new wave that traditional prog. I would say that Krautrock is the embodiment of the "progressive vs prog" debate. As to "understanding" any subgenre, it is something that may happen, or it may not. There are some subgenres I don't really care for, and forcing myself to listen to some highly praised albums has not produced any result. Everyone is entitled to their own tastes, and it is perfectly OK not to "get" something that others do.
Edited by Raff - January 18 2020 at 06:53 |
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Grumpyprogfan
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Lewian
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Actually I agree that everybody has the right to their own taste and opinion, and nobody needs to get into any subgenre, hell, it is even fine to hate all of prog and not listen to any of it anymore ever if anybody decides so. However if somebody is curious enough to ask, it doesn't make sense to tell them that they shouldn't even ask because trying to get into something won't work anyway (for which there are many, many counterexamples). And no, it's not personal. I actually like controversial exchange, however you don't seem to share that. Which is fair enough but really, no need to feel chased by me.
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moshkito
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I have been, for many years trying to explain this from a theater/film perspective, and have had a really hard time getting through for some folks to have a better idea of what an "experimentation" really is ... and one of the accidental postings brought out, yet another example for me ... that I do not think it was meant to. Titles ... usually a "title" tells you what the piece is about, and often the piece/song has lyrics around that theme. This is a problem for "experimentation" and "improvisation", since you do not want to create a situation where someone (an audience let's say) thinks about this word or that word, and the whole thing was nowhere near that word when created. A true improvisation, will have many of the musicians going in many directions, and things may or may not come together ... and this is the hard part in naming anything ... and my take, specially in the situation with Robert Wyatt and Soft Machine, was that the title of his book, was about the fact that the music in SM at the time, had stopped being "different every time" and had become more "controlled" and "composed" ... which makes it less of an improvisation altogether. In this last sense, the numbering of albums by number makes sense ... no need to number an album with a word, 1) when they did not have one in the first place, and 2) the putting together of the whole thing was about being together at one place in time, and this worked ... and then comes the big elephant ... are we going to be able to play that on stage?
The book FUTURE DAYS goes over this really well, and it kind of shows you how different each area was, from each other in regards to not only the music, but in its own development. My take is that one forgets, how important this kind of experimental process was in other disciplines of art, something that too many folks in this board are scared to discuss, or perhaps they are not as aware of theater, film, literature and other arts as I have been lucky to be. I always ask ... do you really think there is as much of a difference between Klaus Kinski and what Damo Suzuki did for CAN ... and the answer is no ... we immediately went after it, and Werner Herzog could not keep the camera away from the loon ... that would not stop acting when the scene was "over", which was very visible sometimes, when (I think) it is very clear that the whole thing was extended because it was simply too good, and some of it could be cut later if it needed to. Lastly, originally, on the CAN website, Holger had stated that TAGO MAGO was put together off 20 some hours of stuff and that most of it was put together by chance and whatever other idea ... to put something together that was not a WESTERNIZED FORM of music ... and this wording shows up more than once within the "krautrock" ideas and concept ... and the same thing happened in literature when you had someone like Peter Handke (and others) writing "word plays" ... where it was a literal 52 pickup with no order whatsoever, no theme that anyone can pick up and a total dismantling of the idea/concept of composition ... something that drives folks here totally crazy ... why/now could anyone be so stupid and crazy to even consider that? A piece of something with no concepts, no ideas, no story, no characters, no lyrics that you and I could define ... the absolute worst thoughts and ideas ... and guess what Damo was doing? A version of the same thing ... guess what Klaus was doing? A version of the same thing thinly disguised as a characterization that never ended, something that we only hear a handful of actors EVER try and work with! My take is that there is a lot more to it all, than we're comfortable describing ... to the point where at least one troll will say that all this is trivial and drivel ... and no one has the guts to call them on their lack of apprehension and appreciation for an art form!
Edited by moshkito - January 18 2020 at 08:46 |
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Guldbamsen
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Except you didn’t say the same thing Had Raff written the same post as you did, you can bet your sweet behind that she would have received the same replies. Yes replies. No one here is attacking you..people have disagreed with you. I’m sorry you feel this way, but you’re going to find it arduous and downright hostile on any internet forum if you keep seeing attacks instead of discussions. This is music man. We all got our own experiences with this marvelous art form, so no wonder we differ when it comes to our opinions of the very same |
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micky
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great post... and agree but let me take that a bit further and another reason why Krautrock, though adopted by prog fan (that big umbrella holding several very different beasts that Jacob spoke of yeqrs ago), is really different from prog. it isn't just the embodiment of progressive v prog.. it is the embodiment of intellectual v. emotional. At its root Krautrock could be called.... anti intellectual.. more primal... thus its strong roots in the beats.. the rhythms.
Edited by micky - January 18 2020 at 17:09 |
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Atavachron
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Internet discussion can indeed be a full-contact sport. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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The Dark Elf
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Krautrock is so hard to understand...because the instrumentals are all in German.
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Mortte
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^...and in vocals there are so "terrible accent".
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Psychedelic Paul
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I just reviewed National Health's first album today. My all-time favourite Canterbury Scene album is "Space Shanty" by Khan, featuring Steve Hillage on guitar.
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Atavachron
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^ Space Shanty was gonna be my next suggestion
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Ozric_Gnome
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Thank you guys for the suggestions, I never expected to get so many
I'm gonna start off listening to Tago Mago, IV, Phallus Dei, In the land of Gray and Pink, Fitter Stoke Has a Bath, and To the Highest Bidder I believe my problem with the genres is honestly just my attention span For awhile I find it quite enjoyable until I get lost and zone out. I'm only sixteen and a frequent drug user so I tend to get dazed and confused Edit: I will also be listening to Of Queues and Cures
Edited by Ozric_Gnome - January 23 2020 at 12:24 |
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Psychedelic Paul
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Caravan's In the land of Gray and Pink is probably the most easily approachable music out of all of the Canterbury Scene albums.
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