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Reasons for continously highest rated Prog albums?

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David_D View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2022 at 03:29

A Neosaur asked a Progasaur: "How am I doing?"
The Progasaur answered: "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?Big smile


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2022 at 03:42
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

The test of time basically means that I still like an album many years later, it still sounds fresh and not dated. Which is obviously very subjective. I'm reluctant to call anything a masterpiece that is only around for a year or a few years. Knowing about lasting influence of an album also requires it to be around for some more time. 

thanks, Lewian Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2022 at 04:58
Originally posted by RockHound RockHound wrote:

Progasaur (n) - A family of Ornithopods that roamed the musical Mesozoic eating Conifers and other vegetarian delicacies while creating intricate and sometimes lovely sounds. These creatures are known to be very dangerous and prone to occasional fits of carnivory.

Progasaurus cerebellus - type species of the family typically having 3-5 heads and bearing a large number of musical appendages.

Mellotronodon hammondi - Keyboard-bearing reptile with more arms, fingers, and capes than centipedes have legs. Commonly seen in the wild with very large arrays of acoustic and electronic keyboards.

Bassoraptor rickenbackerus - Dinosaur typically playing 4-stringed instrument but known to thump the jungle with 5 or more strings. Some Bassoraptors have been sighted with large sticks.

Stratocasterus londonensis - This species of Progasaur thrives on thin, wound strings and was first sighted in the London area. While originally most abundant there, populations became common in Italy and the US. From there, the species radiated around the world, with special variants evolving in Scandinavia.

Beatobanger smackithardicus - This taxon has numerous arms like Mellotronodon, but can be distinguished by a small number of fingers that hold various types of sticks. It's important to keep a safe distance during prog safaris because they'll hit anything, often at odd times, and carry on ad nauseam about what is the most important species in the band.

Sirenosaurus angelicabanshee - This Progasaur lures it's prey with exceptional voices, and some have been known to growl when the Stratocasterus uses powered humbuckers. Some roam the landscape wearing costume, others dance about, and others also wield instruments. But relatively few dive into the prehistoric mosh pit. 

Where Have I Known You Before?


Edited by David_D - September 21 2022 at 09:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2022 at 07:02
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

The test of time basically means that I still like an album many years later, it still sounds fresh and not dated. Which is obviously very subjective. I'm reluctant to call anything a masterpiece that is only around for a year or a few years. Knowing about lasting influence of an album also requires it to be around for some more time. 

 I understand, however, the first time you heard "Gates of Delirium" or "The Musical Box" or "Take a Pebble" or "Thick as a Brick" or "Close to the Edge" or "Awaken" or even Kind of Blue or Giant Steps or Days of Future Passed or "Ode to Joy" or Turandot or Don Giovanni or films like The Lion in Winter or Apocalypse Now or 2001: A Space Odyssey didn't you feel as if you were in the presence of mastery--that you were hearing something that was revolutionary, Earth-shattering and/or soul-awakening? 

Some masterpieces, I believe, are self-evident. Even upon initial contact. They are just that powerful.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2022 at 05:35
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

... you feel as if you were in the presence of mastery--that you were hearing something that was revolutionary, Earth-shattering and/or soul-awakening? 

Some masterpieces, I believe, are self-evident. Even upon initial contact. They are just that powerful.

Thank you very much for this post, Bruford. 

Can you say something more about how it can be that some albums can be experienced as such masterpieces?
The reasons for it?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2022 at 06:05
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Can you say something more about how it can be that some albums can be experienced as such masterpieces?
The reasons for it?
Any artist only creates their best at a specific point in time. I don't believe they assume the work created is a masterpiece. Therfore, a masterpiece may be nothing but luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2022 at 07:37
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

The test of time basically means that I still like an album many years later, it still sounds fresh and not dated. Which is obviously very subjective. I'm reluctant to call anything a masterpiece that is only around for a year or a few years. Knowing about lasting influence of an album also requires it to be around for some more time. 

 I understand, however, the first time you heard "Gates of Delirium" or "The Musical Box" or "Take a Pebble" or "Thick as a Brick" or "Close to the Edge" or "Awaken" or even Kind of Blue or Giant Steps or Days of Future Passed or "Ode to Joy" or Turandot or Don Giovanni or films like The Lion in Winter or Apocalypse Now or 2001: A Space Odyssey didn't you feel as if you were in the presence of mastery--that you were hearing something that was revolutionary, Earth-shattering and/or soul-awakening? 

Some masterpieces, I believe, are self-evident. Even upon initial contact. They are just that powerful.

Well, yes and no. For me I'd say that something can strike me like this at first listen, and often enough it will stand the test of time, but ultimately there are also things that strike me a lot at first listen but lose much of their appeal (I'm by far not as convinced as I was aged 17 that Eloy has produced a couple of masterpieces), and others take some time, and in some cases it takes me years to realise that I think something is a masterpiece (e.g. Tangerine Dream - Zeit).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2022 at 08:04
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

The test of time basically means that I still like an album many years later, it still sounds fresh and not dated. Which is obviously very subjective. I'm reluctant to call anything a masterpiece that is only around for a year or a few years. Knowing about lasting influence of an album also requires it to be around for some more time. 

 I understand, however, the first time you heard "Gates of Delirium" or "The Musical Box" or "Take a Pebble" or "Thick as a Brick" or "Close to the Edge" or "Awaken" or even Kind of Blue or Giant Steps or Days of Future Passed or "Ode to Joy" or Turandot or Don Giovanni or films like The Lion in Winter or Apocalypse Now or 2001: A Space Odyssey didn't you feel as if you were in the presence of mastery--that you were hearing something that was revolutionary, Earth-shattering and/or soul-awakening? 

Some masterpieces, I believe, are self-evident. Even upon initial contact. They are just that powerful.

Well, yes and no. For me I'd say that something can strike me like this at first listen, and often enough it will stand the test of time, but ultimately there are also things that strike me a lot at first listen but lose much of their appeal (I'm by far not as convinced as I was aged 17 that Eloy has produced a couple of masterpieces), and others take some time, and in some cases it takes me years to realize that I think something is a masterpiece (e.g. Tangerine Dream - Zeit).

I tend to agree with Lewian on this one.

But as much as we tend to focus on the "impression" that some of these things tend to take in our imaginations, we seem to forget that it was the time OF THE MEDIA that helped make it more important that it might have been. A perfect example would be showing 2001 today, and how many folks would end up saying that it was boring, stupid and had no action ... and the music was old and outdated. However, it's moment IN TIME has stood out more than a lot of things that were not that impressive, but somehow, we think they are ... Relayer is one such piece in that it is nowhere near the quality or level of excellence that TFTO has to offer ... but some fans loved it and hated the sermon that Jon delivered!

When listening to things from yesterday, it is important, VERY IMPORTANT, to remember that things are not the same today as yesterday, and anyone considering Tarkus a rock song, is not a fan of progressive music whatsoever, but what I would consider a very uneducated fan when it comes to music. One look at Rachel Flowers doing this solo on the piano, will tell you that this is a masterpiece piano concerto, but top five and rock fans hate that thought and idea ... because it takes the glamour from their commercial idea and thoughts.

This is one of the reasons why I tell folks to unplug things ... let's see what "music" do we have under it all ... and too many bands are afraid of doing that because no one will recognize how poorly they did in the first place when compared to many other things spanning some 55 years of rock music. 

Fans, TODAY, still don't know what "progressive music" meant and was ... at all ... beyond some stupid format created by cretons and geeks who were upset that their "favorites" were not listed in the top five! Heck even Virgin Records did that an eon ago and got away with it ... a lot of their stuff went on to sell well, although it was found that the man with the colored balls ripped off so many folks ... but that is allowed in England if you are super rich and own half the country! The imperial army of the dead rich will never allow that fact to be shown or seen!
 
Ratings are ... a joke, and we don't spend our time rating Beethoven, Mozart, Bach and Stravinsky ... and anyone would be stupid to do so! Favorites and preferences are OK, but most of us would shrimp/skimp on deciding which I like best ... the 5th, the 9th, or The Rite ... it's a ridiculous idea to think "ratings" when you look at it in the proper context, which is completely ignored here, for the most part, in my estimation! There is no respect, or appreciation for the history of the music with a rating!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jared Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2022 at 08:16
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

ultimately there are also things that strike me a lot at first listen but lose much of their appeal (I'm by far not as convinced as I was aged 17 that Eloy has produced a couple of masterpieces)

I'm 54 and still under the impression that Eloy released at least a couple of masterpieces.. LOL
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2022 at 08:44
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Can you say something more about how it can be that some albums can be experienced as such masterpieces?
The reasons for it?
Any artist only creates their best at a specific point in time. I don't believe they assume the work created is a masterpiece. Therfore, a masterpiece may be nothing but luck.

So some guys are maybe just lucky, others not, and it should have nothing to do with talent, socialization and hard work, for not to talk about all the general cultural circumstances in a particular period of time?


Edited by David_D - September 22 2022 at 12:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2022 at 09:03
Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

ultimately there are also things that strike me a lot at first listen but lose much of their appeal (I'm by far not as convinced as I was aged 17 that Eloy has produced a couple of masterpieces)
I'm 54 and still under the impression that Eloy released at least a couple of masterpieces.. LOL

If we only look at it at one-person-level (the individual one), we will never be able to understand the inter-subjectivity which occurs in the top lists. Smile


Edited by David_D - September 22 2022 at 11:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2022 at 01:17
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

ultimately there are also things that strike me a lot at first listen but lose much of their appeal (I'm by far not as convinced as I was aged 17 that Eloy has produced a couple of masterpieces)
I'm 54 and still under the impression that Eloy released at least a couple of masterpieces.. LOL

If we only look at it at one-person-level (the individual one), we will never be able to understand the inter-subjectivity which occurs in the top lists. Smile

I could also say, Jared, that you seem to have missed Lewian's point here. Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2022 at 02:26
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

ultimately there are also things that strike me a lot at first listen but lose much of their appeal (I'm by far not as convinced as I was aged 17 that Eloy has produced a couple of masterpieces)
I'm 54 and still under the impression that Eloy released at least a couple of masterpieces.. LOL

If we only look at it at one-person-level (the individual one), we will never be able to understand the inter-subjectivity which occurs in the top lists. Smile
I could also say, Jared, that you seem to have missed Lewian's point here. Smile


You seem to have missed that Jared made a joke. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2022 at 03:48

Firstly, sorry for that my thread title could very probably be more precise, as I've actually had meant classics, 
and yet understood as those of the many years old albums which today are amongst the highest rated. 
- So I now allowed myself to change the thread title a bit.

Now, I think there're many different reasons for the existence of such classics, but to understand some of the main ones, 
we have to look at it as a relation between some albums and Prog fans/aficionados, that is as resonating.

Some albums are not born as "masterpieces". Even they surely need to possess certain qualities to become classics, 
so it's not randomly which albums do and which not, many different circumstances determine which potential albums 
actually do it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2022 at 03:54
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

You seem to have missed that Jared made a joke. 

And you seem to have missed my purpose with that post, and why do you have to "constantly" correct me? Dead




Edited by David_D - September 23 2022 at 04:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2022 at 04:12
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

You seem to have missed that Jared made a joke. 

And you seem to have missed my purpose with that post, and why do you have to "constantly" correct me? Dead


constantly? LOL
I will stop correcting you when you stop constantly editing everything. LOL
Also quoting yourself and constantly resurrecting your own threads & mentioning your own threads in other threads. When will that happen? 


Edited by Cristi - September 23 2022 at 04:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2022 at 06:26
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

constantly? LOL
I will stop correcting you when you stop constantly editing everything. LOL
Also quoting yourself and constantly resurrecting your own threads & mentioning your own threads in other threads. When will that happen? 

Anyway, it's not so strange that at least some members find the atmosphere on the PA forum to be not so good. Neither, does it contribute well to some serious discussions like this thread which quite a lot of members seem to be fond of. Ermm


Edited by David_D - September 23 2022 at 07:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jared Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2022 at 06:43
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I could also say, Jared, that you seem to have missed Lewian's point here. Smile

With respect David, I don't think I did; sometimes my sense of humour can be quite dry and self-deprecating. 

Lewian was expressing the opinion that at 17, he was under the impression that at the height of their powers, Eloy had released several masterpieces (he will almost certainly be referring to Dawn - Ocean - Silent Cries) however now he is older, he believes they weren't, rather citing early TD in this vein, with the inference that he has matured in his view. That's all fine and I have no argument with him.

I was making the point that at 54, I am still under the impression that Eloy released a few masterpieces, not having matured in my musical tastes sufficiently, to match his own point of view. I'm sure he understood the humour.  Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2022 at 08:43
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^ What bands with their first release twenty years ago can compete with the progasours?

Concerning progasaurs or dinosaurs, I just got the book Citizens of Hope and Glory: The Story of Progressive Rock (2013) and had a look at it. There's a lot of photos of the 70's bands members but taken in the 00's, and that made me thinking "that's true dinosaurs". Big smile

By the way, I don't see the point of all these rather new photos in a history book, and in my opinion it would surely be better with historical photos, and if that should be too expensive to do, it would certainly be better with none, or best with more pictures of the covers.

So Paul, my first impression of this book is not so positive.


Edited by David_D - September 23 2022 at 09:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2022 at 09:09
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

...
By the way, I don't see the point of all these rather new photos in a history book, and in my opinion it would surely be better with historical photos, and if that should be too expensive to do, it would certainly be better with none, or best with more pictures of the covers.


Hi,

Weird that you talk about this in a way where old folks need to fall over and die!

And, of course, you think that only the young bucks have the goods, but you do not listen to music, and you don't know many other musicians that are quite old, and they still produce at a very high level, but because your silliness stands at historical bs ... it just says, that you have no idea what the music is, or is about!

Right ... PH is still alive and well. So is Roy Harper. So is Bob Dylan. So is Neil Young. Take your historical snapshots and burn them ... an artist will produce until the day he/she falls over ... but you wouldn't EVER understand that! Wink
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