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Pain of Salvation - Road Salt 1 & 2. Retro 70's sound with a recording quality that many found to be low fidelity. I personally found it delightgukl raw.

Opeth - Heritage. No metal at all, retro 70's. I really enjoyed.

Banco del Mutuo Socorsso - ...di Terra. Orchestral/rock/instrumental album without Francesco's trademark vocals.

Supersister - Iskander. Gets a lot of grief for not being humorous enough.




      

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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

I think it's more the case that most people rate and review albums they like as opposed to albums they don't.

To see how valid this statement is, would require a thorough statistical analysis of a large/very large number of ratings, which I've never done, so I don't really know what to think about it. But it seems probable to me, and the more it's the case, the more important and saying is the number of ratings for an album than their average.


Edited by David_D - May 10 2023 at 06:03
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

I think it's more the case that most people rate and review albums they like as opposed to albums they don't.

Btw, the reason for the obvious difference in rating between PA and RYM can be a higher percentage of like-rating (as opposed to dislike-rating) on PA than RYM.
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Tales From Topographic Oceans is obviously the big one. This one recently clicked with me, and it's weird to me that so many prog-fans think this one is weaker than the other albums from Yes' golden era.

I've heard a lot of negative opinions about King Crimson's Lizard, especially towards Gordon Haskell's vocals. Also about how, musically, the title track doesn't really go anywhere and the rest of the tracks don't really have anything on the level of their first two albums. Here on PA it's highly rated, on the other hand. I think it's definitely a weaker KC album, and Haskell does indeed kind of suck at times, but it's still pretty good.

The Final Cut also counts as divisive for sure.

For a non-prog example that's on PA anyway, Metallica's black album is highly popular, but is often seen by fans of their older work as their first misstep, and a sell-out album. And it is a sell-out album, despite the band members insisting that it isn't. I guess you could say the same about 90125 or Genesis' 80's/90's output.
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Thank You! Yes, I decided if I'm going ro run with the prog-rock thing, I should find more people that know prog WAY more than I do, and this forum has been a great resource. There are some albums i'll make a point to go back to, I didn't really like 'The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway' OR 'Selling England By The Pound' at first, so I haven't listened to them since. I'll make sure to check those out again. I highly expect tastes to change, so i'm trying not get worn out on my favorites, but it's nice because the Prog Rock rabbit hole goes waaaay deeper than most people think!

I too, am excited
The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.

Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time...
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Can the divisive albums be roughly split into two classes?

(1) (Like Dream Theaters more controversial albums:) Albums of which a group of people thinks that they are not risk-taking enough, boring, or selling out by trying to please a bigger crowd, and

(2) (Like Trout Mask Replica:) Albums that are hard to access and alienate many while enthusing some?
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I find (2) less about being divisive more about targeting a niche audience and not caring what general population thinks about it. To use a marketing term they are not about 'reach'.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. Rating any album 3 or 4 stars is pretty normal, so a "divisive" album should have many 5 and 2 or 1 while having a good number of ratings. Looking at typical percentages I'd say that a divisive album should at least have 20% 5 star ratings and at least 10% 2 or 1 star (people come here for the music they like, so there's more going on at the upper end; an album with less than 20% 5 star just isn't very appreciated).

A small thing but anyway, I'd call your angle for "statistical"; and after having thinking some more about it, I find your definition quite appropriate and practical.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Can the divisive albums be roughly split into two classes?

(1) (Like Dream Theaters more controversial albums:) Albums of which a group of people thinks that they are not risk-taking enough, boring, or selling out by trying to please a bigger crowd, and

(2) (Like Trout Mask Replica:) Albums that are hard to access and alienate many while enthusing some?

Not that I've been looking much at the whole question, but I can at least have the impression of an existence of these, roughly speaking, two classes.


Edited by David_D - May 10 2023 at 08:00
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. Rating any album 3 or 4 stars is pretty normal, so a "divisive" album should have many 5 and 2 or 1 while having a good number of ratings. Looking at typical percentages I'd say that a divisive album should at least have 20% 5 star ratings and at least 10% 2 or 1 star (people come here for the music they like, so there's more going on at the upper end; an album with less than 20% 5 star just isn't very appreciated).

A small thing but anyway, I'd call your angle for "statistical"; and after having thinking some more about it, I find your definition quite appropriate and practical.


Thanks. Anyway, the problem I have with my own "definition" is just that I'm well aware that some aspects of being "divisive" cannot be captured well by the numbers only. There may be a small but noisy and otherwise well respected group of people who don't like an album that is mostly in high esteem. This group can even be sizeable at less than 10% in case the number of ratings is high anyway such as for Topographic Oceans (potentially backed up by many people who hate it but don't rate on PA). It's one thing to ask what percentage rates it 1 or 2 but quite another how much and controversially discussed it is. On the other hand, requiring 20% five stars may be seen as too much, and one can ask, why require more 5 stars than 1/2? There may be some vocal and influential lovers of the album even if fewer than 20%. Also of course there could be many 4 star voters who really like an album, even with a large number of 1 or 2 stars.

So just because Final Cut or Topographic Oceans don't match my definition, it's still fine to call them divisive as far as I'm concerned. I just don't think such issues can be removed by another purely quantitative definition (because of, among other things, the peculiarities of rating such as having loads of 4 star ratings around, much fewer 2 stars and  hardly any 1 star). At the end of the day it comes down to taste and taste is subjective and doesn't work by numbers.

The good thing about the numbers is that they can dispel some myths that some may believe, such as that Topographic Oceans is much hated even among prog fans.


Edited by Lewian - May 10 2023 at 07:42
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Can the divisive albums be roughly split into two classes?

(1) (Like Dream Theaters more controversial albums:) Albums of which a group of people thinks that they are not risk-taking enough, boring, or selling out by trying to please a bigger crowd, and

(2) (Like Trout Mask Replica:) Albums that are hard to access and alienate many while enthusing some?

Respectfully, I'm not entirely sold on either of these examples...

(1) Albums by established bands which are 'not risk taking enough' are rarely divisive, because they don't cause two entrenched viewpoints; they may merely find about 10% of their active fanbase erode away. DT: 13 for instance, very much fitted that criteria, but didn't polarise anyone. The Astonishing however did polarise, because it attempted to go in a different direction and break the mold. Brave it was, but I'm not sure how successful.

(2) Maybe others are better placed to discuss the extent to which Captain Beefheart polarised? Were they mainstream enough at the time to have done so?   
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Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:


(2) Maybe others are better placed to discuss the extent to which Captain Beefheart polarised? Were they mainstream enough at the time to have done so?   

Well, here the numbers come in again. The album has 20% 1 or 2 stars. Note sure whether you can find any other album here that has so many while also having 40% 5 stars (assuming a not very low number of ratings) at 380 ratings with 80 (!!) reviews. If that one is not polarising, I don't know what is.


Edited by Lewian - May 10 2023 at 07:52
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:


(2) Maybe others are better placed to discuss the extent to which Captain Beefheart polarised? Were they mainstream enough at the time to have done so?   

Well, here the numbers come in again. The album has 20% 1 or 2 stars. Note sure whether you can find any other album here that has so many while also having 40% 5 stars (assuming a not very low number of ratings) at 380 ratings with 80 (!!) reviews. If that one is not polarising, I don't know what is.

I accept all that.  Clap   However we are looking at it from a contemporary viewpoint.

I suppose my question was based on how divisive the album was considered at the time, in the context of other releases within the late 60's Avant scene? Being polarising with the benefit of hindsight isn't necessarily the same thing...
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

The good thing about the numbers is that they can dispel some myths that some may believe, such as that Topographic Oceans is much hated even among prog fans.

Another, or the same, thing is that numbers are "facts" which give good, inter-subjective basis for some more qualified discussions - comparing to single person's opinions which validity can be difficult to estimate.


Edited by David_D - May 10 2023 at 09:55
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Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

However we are looking at it from a contemporary viewpoint.

Exactly, that's what we're doing here, and not historically. Wink
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Can the divisive albums be roughly split into two classes?

(1) (Like Dream Theaters more controversial albums:) Albums of which a group of people thinks that they are not risk-taking enough, boring, or selling out by trying to please a bigger crowd, and

(2) (Like Trout Mask Replica:) Albums that are hard to access and alienate many while enthusing some?


Sure.  There's more than one way to skin a cat.   For example: Albums such as Opeth's Heritage suggest that some albums are divisive when they're released.  Not so much...a decade down the road. 
 Others, remain divisive years later...such as Yes West era albums and Genesis Abacab. Time tarnishes, casting it's rusty patina. 


Edited by omphaloskepsis - May 10 2023 at 10:29
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I imagine King Crimson - Discipline was fairly divisive when released, new line-up, radical new sound, "why do they sound like Talking Heads?"
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

.... requiring 20% five stars may be seen as too much, and one can ask, why require more 5 stars than 1/2? 

In this case, I think, you're quite right that for different reasons, there's bigger tendency to give 5 stars than 1-2, so 20% of 5 stars can be said to be equal to 10% of 1-2 stars, and I think too, we need a larger percentage of ratings to allow us to talk about being "divisive".



Edited by David_D - May 10 2023 at 12:39
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

I imagine King Crimson - Discipline was fairly divisive when released, new line-up, radical new sound, "why do they sound like Talking Heads?"

I remember a long time ago (the summer of 1995 to be exact) when I worked in a warehouse there was a guy I worked with who said the same thing. He thought those 80s albums sounded too much like the Talking Heads. People (including the guy I worked with) say that like it's a bad thing. Oh well. Another guy at that same place recommended Allan Holdsworth, Tribel Tech and John Zorn (who I never did check out but apparently he's divisive too). 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - May 10 2023 at 11:46
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

I imagine King Crimson - Discipline was fairly divisive when released, new line-up, radical new sound, "why do they sound like Talking Heads?"

Very much so. Although could you say the same about Lark's Tongues too? If so, I might venture to suggest that the latter might have proved more divisive because in '73, they were still a more mainstream band with a sizeable fan base?

It would also be interesting to consider which albums which proved divisive when released are still considered so now, as opposed to those which now appear to be fairly tame and we wonder what the fuss was about? 
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