PA Album of the Year Discussion thread |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35400 |
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I want it to be as democratic as possible, and I'm but a twice retired collab who comes back like a bad penny. the way we set this up is that all members are taking part in the official list, and I want to stick with that.
EDIT: I'm fine if you list all three for those who are interested. Of course I can see merit if you listen to lots compared to one who listens to little, but ultimately it is subjective, we all have our biases, and there is lot that each will not have heard. I have rather liked the idea of short list where each of us proposes one album and then we listen to all of those and choose from it, and we then could have a point system say with 50 points in five categories: 10 points for innovation/ originality etc. It might be interesting to see how different, if indeed they are, the regular user lists and collab lists are (as some collabs have said that the collab list is unrepresentative in terms what really is popular in the greater Prog community), but let's not make that the focus now. That could be something after the results are in that includes all PA members who participate. One thing I have wondered is if onby albums in PA should be included for the official tally of prog album, or if ones that got auto-tagged at your site as Prog should be includable. I am interested in the non-Prog results as well as the Prog album of the year, Edited by Logan - January 08 2024 at 16:02 |
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earlyprog
Collaborator Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams Joined: March 05 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 2130 |
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Forget it, I'm not going to add up the results myself of only collabs. I'm not here for the benefit of PA but of my own
(Edit: ^You have edited me out of your original post, but you know what I'm refering to.) Edited by earlyprog - January 08 2024 at 16:20 |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35400 |
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I'm happy for Mike to implement that as an added feature (I'd be rather interested to see it myself and not have to manaully tally if I wanted to), but for the official list I think it would be wrong to now choose to exclude non-collabs.
^ Yeah, I know, I was trying to explain something of my meaning to Mike but conversation moved on and it was redundant and I phrased in a misleading to my meaning way. I often edit, but others are fast to respond. Edited by Logan - January 08 2024 at 16:23 |
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14639 |
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I'd support the "democratic" version, i.e., no weighting, everyone with top 20. Otherwise, how would you want to determine who has heard how many albums? Should people just declare that? Or are you then asking us to list everything we listened to? That makes little sense to me. Of course one can weight by "status", but then we need to have a discussion how exactly, and I can imagine more enjoyable things than that. I also think it may be potentially off-putting to have lengthy discussions about the rules in the thread while voting is already going on. In all likelihood there are people who are happy to submit a list, but much less happy to track the thread for potentially relevant changes of the rules after they have submitted. For example I think it would be quite bad if at some point things were changed in such a way that listing more than 20 releases gives a higher weight or more points overall if up to some point people had already submitted lists believing that in terms of the evaluation there is no point in listing more than 20 (even though of course some people can do it for fun's sake).
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35400 |
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What I favour now is stability. The time is fast approaching for the results. We want all the lists in by the end of this month. I think we stick to the program, all members are treated equally (various non-collabs know way more than various collabs), and we try to encourage all to participate to the best of their abilities, or as time and interest permits (still time to discover more, too). The added features and tweaks can be nice, but also I don't think we would want such technical issues to be the main focus, nor revising the rules. I would like it if more people would come up with their initial lists and hopefully there can be some more discussion when it comes to the actual music, and recommendations to others.
After the results are in, think it will be fun to have a sort of postmortem to see how it could be improved for next year, and how best to encourage participation. I want to continue to see ones for all active members to participate in. Edited by Logan - January 08 2024 at 18:38 |
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Nogbad_The_Bad
Forum & Site Admin Group RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 20738 |
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Agree.
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35400 |
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^ Good. By the way, I added Sprain and The Lamb as Effigy so that can now be linked to PA. I added the link to PA.
Edited by Logan - January 08 2024 at 20:47 |
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richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 27729 |
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AOTY always been a bit of an oddity anwyay considering we are already a rating and review site and due weighting is given to collabs reviews as well as proper reviews. You could genuinely ask ''what is the point?'
However I am very lazy and so welcome the chance to post lists and do it easily which this allows. It's a fun thing. I'm slightly disappointed that more non collabs have not taken part as yet. Perhaps it's a 'habit thing'. When I first was 'anointed' I didn't bother with AOTY and had to be nudged into doing it. I was also a little annoyed when it went from 10 to 20 picks. It stops being a special list when it gets expanded too far imo. I would have stuck at 10 and then it makes you properly think what are those really special albums. Still like doing it though but I wonder if it might be daunting to those who don't really want to do longish expanded lists?
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21022 |
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^ Ideally every dedicated PA user should submit ratings (and reviews) for their favorite releases (and AP users should do the same at AP), but there's often things that get in the way (from the life most of us have outside of music) and we forget. That's one of the reasons why I like doing these lists, the activity of putting it together lets you reflect on what you listened to.
As I have, annoyingly, been pointing out, I have listened to more than 250 releases of 2023 - and I've also rated all of them and written blurbs or even some lengthy reviews for some of them. But the releases list which I submitted here is more than just my ratings sorted. I have left out some highly rated releases as well as included some with a little lower rating. My ratings are fluctuating as I am listening to these releases again. And even with the AP rating system which allows for more fine-grained ratings than PA, With that many releases to sort, the ratings are too crude. TL;DR: Ratings have their place - and we all should rate our favorite releases - but manual lists have a different quality and can offer a different perspective. Regarding the question of whether to make it a top 10 or top 20: With 2023 in particular, I would opt to make it a top 40, since there were so many great releases (not saying we should actually do that, it's just what I would prefer). Whatever number we choose, while people can submit shorter lists, it rewards those who can name more releases since they get more points to distribute. But I think that this reward makes sense, and given that it was such a great year, allowing 20 entries rather than 10 leads to a more diverse end result.
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - January 09 2024 at 02:27 |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35400 |
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I too had to be encouraged to take part in the AOTY, in my case by Avestin. He had lots of recommendations that he thought I would like, and he was right. Aranis was a particularly memorable one for me, and Rational Diet, Far Corner....
I had hoped that this would have attracted a wider userbase, and that more would be enthusiastic about taking part, but I am very pleased to see various people whom I have had plenty of good times sharing music with form the Interactive Poll series taking part. For me having people like Lewian, Suitkees, and Nickie take part is great. But we're all used to lists, finding and sharing music. This attracts a certain kind of person. One person who has had a significant influence on my tastes opted not to take part, and that's fine too. I still would like to read people's unranked lists if they feel uncomfortable ranking them. It could be intimidating to some and some might not understand the process. For instance that one need not list 20, and that one need not start with a finalised list. In past AOTY polls, sometimes I would start with just a few (I have not participated in all since I became a collab). I would love to see more lists, more recommendations. and maybe some will have albums that few of us have heard of and turn some of us onto them though this thread. I like it at 20 for this. I would like to see another list later that calculates, say, based on the top 40, and indeed many more. Number one choice getting 40 points and so on. And I do want to see this list for the year as something that continues to grow and be tallied even past the date of when the official album of the year is announced. Oh, and right now I am listening to the album Distorted Rooms by Radian (released in September) due to a post in an interactive poll topic. I actually had checked out some music from it before that, but the track posted in the topic really caught my interest. |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35400 |
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had not seen this while posting my last post. Quoting as this was the last post on the last page.
I do hope people do try to post in a way to enter the Album of the Year by ranking even a top two. For this exercise to work as I would hope, it needs as much collaboration as possible with members taking part in putting input towards the album of the year. Maybe some could start with that, or even I would say just by posting their unranked lists in this topic. Going forward, I think streamlining the process might help. For now I think some stability with the tool might help as the tool for this is to help collate the results for the Album of the Year, and to help people in listing those. When one adds more and more options, it can end up being more about the tool than the individuals coming together and working together as a community to shine a light on albums thought to be of worth. Just a thought. Edited by Logan - January 09 2024 at 03:34 |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21022 |
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^ I just wanted to get in the unranked option, as this was something that was keeping a few users from participating. I will continue to improve the usability and tweak how the results are displayed, but we can declare a feature freeze until the Aoty 2023 is done
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - January 09 2024 at 03:35 |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35400 |
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^ Well, we have to be flexible if issues come up, of course. I just don't know that having it unranked has great utility for an album of the year endeavour (almost 3 am here, up since 5 am yesterday, words not coming out right) -- unless later they choose to order the list or partially order it. Or what difference would using it make to this endeavour rather than just posting an unranked list if that is all one does? Maybe all get a point if they input their lists at your site, but that would just complicate things. I do see utility in that feature, and I still would rather see unranked lists than no lists at all.
But I want to encourage people to contribute to the album of the year, and I fear offering such a feature can distract from that and may offer an unnecessary out. If people want to post their unranked lists with or without your site's tool, I am fine with that, but I would encourage people to try to use some ranking for the purposes of this Album of the Year endeavour. The more who participate, the better. Of course, one good thing about entering it there unranked is that people may later choose to order them. So that may well help. I like the feature, for sure. One thing I have worried about with your tool is that it might seem to be more about using the tool and your site to people and improving the features than about the Prog Archives community coming together to choose and discuss our best list. But make no mistake, I really like and appreciate the tool and all your efforts. I was just a bit worried that this might seem too tool-focused to some. Edited by Logan - January 09 2024 at 03:59 |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21022 |
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The point of the new feature is that users can submit an unranked list via the tool. Previously the tool would always imbue significance to the order of the releases, not only displaying them as a ranked list but also distributing the points based on it, thereby rewarding the top entries and punishing the bottom entries. The unranked list is simply a way to say "these are my favorites, in no particular order", and to incorporate these lists into the combined chart in a meaningful way (by spreading out the points between all releases in the list). Of course users can change that at any time - just change the mode in the tool and re-submit. To rephrase your last sentence: I would rather see unranked lists submitted via the tool than no lists at all, or manual lists posted here or elsewhere which don't get counted towards the combined chart.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35400 |
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^ Okay, gotcha. Thanks.
On another note: Ideally, I would like to see all manual lists here count towards the vote. I noticed at progressiveears that you were adding people's list to your tool's charts and I think you might have done the same here. Of course this should not discourage people from trying their best to use your tool at your site. Edited by Logan - January 09 2024 at 04:14 |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21022 |
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^ I could add manual lists to the chart, but it has been pointed out to me (in another forum) that doing something like that infringes on the rights of the person (to control where/how their data is being used).
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35400 |
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^ I saw that, seemed petulant to me. Well, we would want to ask first, but I think this case is different, since yours is the official tool of 2023's Album of the Year. Official tool has a nice ring to it.
I wonder if you would be okay if we added this list ordered in the same way? Note that the lists can contain music in and out of PA. |
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mathman0806
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 06 2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
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First, I would like to say I appreciate the tool Mike has developed and having this poll open for non-collaborators introduced me to some albums I may not have listened to.
Second, a suggestion for Mike. I was looking at the ratings output and I think the numbering needs to account for ties so the next number skips. For example, if two albums are ranked #4, the next album should be #6, not #5. That way if you get to the number 50 album there are 49 albums ranked above it. |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21022 |
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^ Good point, will see it done.
EDIT: done! Edited by MikeEnRegalia - January 09 2024 at 05:15 |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35400 |
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Rules are important, they make this process easier and more effective. As we have changed this from Collab of the Year to including all members, and this is the official pre-results topic, and Mike will be looking at the post copying over form his site, I do ask people to do one that has up to 20 albums that are listed at this link: https://awesomeprog.com/aoty-poll It's fun and easy to add, and great if many members factor into the official PA album of the year results.
Usually we do a discussion thread and a list one separately, but thought we could maybe combine them if it is not confusing for Mike. Will came up with this topic too which can be used informally. That was intended for non-collabs, but it had not yet been announced that we decided to be open to members be they collab or not (I always preferred that idea if workable, to be honest). Here is Will's topic whcih I hope people support as well. https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=132142 And perhaps that can include lists in other formats methinks and be less formal in that way. Note: this was an early post of mine in the older AOTY thread that I linked to on page one here, which is now intended for lists specifically, but after exporting I overwrote my message for the topic and used this new post space to save it. Edited by Logan - January 09 2024 at 16:04 |
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