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Simon & Garfunkel for Prog Folk?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2023 at 13:57
Originally posted by Jacob Schoolcraft Jacob Schoolcraft wrote:

If you see fit to place them in Proto related prog ..I believe it's important to acknowledge the fact that Bookends was in a world of its own. Their other albums sound nothing like Bookends. Not even close and to be specific the structure of the album compared to their others is completely opposite of what they normally were up to that point. The Boxer had the "feel" of Bookends. Short of that their other albums were part of a separation in styles.

Paul Simon's chord progressions are way more jazzy . He plays like he previously did but he adds in new vocabulary to his playing on this album. They were working with Beaver and Krause and that influenced S&G to write differently maybe more in the approach that The Beatles had where each song flowed into another and the overall affect of the album was like watching a film.

Bookends contained some tricky vocal parts and some interesting harmony. Bookends was a collection of odd songs colored with Synthesizer and Mellotron. The songs are deep although a few are also humorous. The ideas are interesting. It's more English sounding to me and at times British Psychedelic...which you all know varied with its instrumentation and its usage of electronics and Mellotron which.....that's what Simon and Garfunkel were trying to do on this album....They were a Folk Duo and they wanted to experiment with new ideas and so they recorded Bookends, but it's important to remember that they never repeated this type of approach and it only happened once.

Don't confuse clever and innovative pop music for progressive folk.   And frankly the "One Prog Album" rule/non-rule can be abused, so let's not let it be.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jacob Schoolcraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2023 at 20:16
It was John Simon that played the synthesizer line for "Save The Life Of My Child" not Paul Beaver...My mistake! However I think it's safe to say that S&G consulted with Beaver And Krause regarding their interest in the Moog Synthesizer...just as most musicians living in those times did..such as The Doors, The Byrds, The Beatles, George Martin and so on and so forth as it is documented that Beaver And Krause pioneered the Moog Synthesizer to Rock bands in the 60s. Several musicians consulted with Bob Moog on the usage of its musical capabilities..Wendy Carlos, Mort Garson and others...but Beaver And Krause pushed the synthesizer into Rock Music and as time progressed Progressive Rock with Keith Emerson consulting with Bob Moog regarding what type of sound or control over the instrument that he wanted and Paul Beaver helped design a Moog Synthesizer for him.

Simon And Garfunkel were definitely pursuing that on Bookends through Pop Music. That was a part of history where two particular guys held the key and all the answers to operating the Moog Synthesizer to your own means. It was a social form of expansion in Pop Music, Rock Music, and eventually Progressive Rock music. It was the golden age of Art Rock Music and everybody had a new idea because nothing of that magnitude had ever been invented before had it? No it hadn't ..and as a result bands like Family, The Moody Blues, Caravan, and King Crimson surfaced.

It's obvious that Simon And Garfunkel had an interest in pursuing that path. They crossover into areas of being Progressive and Bookends was thought to be trippy and dark in those times. You have to consider the times. Mort Garson had released the Zodiac album in 67' which was corny, but supposedly influential to the Moody Blues. The song "Old Friends " is rather impressionable particularly in the center section where a string quartet is playing a more Avant-garde sounding line of dissonance and it really distracts from the fact that it's a Simon And Garfunkel album. It is an unusual album.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2023 at 21:25
^ I respect your passion --

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2023 at 07:53
Hi,

This is, by far, one of the saddest things I have ever seen and read.

There has been for hundreds of years, and even millenia, a lot of music, and arts that we have never heard or enjoyed or could possibly appreciate, and to decide if they deserve to be "progressive" somewhere in PA, or elsewhere, is scary ... how can such wonderful material and music, be ignored? By people that are so star struck by the the electric components and definition of "progressive music", that something original and completely different can not even be appreciate and the best many of us here can do is say ... NO ... 

Perhaps PA or someone else needs a new genre ... "quasi progressive" and it could/should include a lot of things that were pop music, mostly, but they had their expressive qualities that gave them a better artistic quota than simple pop music. A&G fit in places a lot more than just pop music ... but they also "stretched" things like Bob Dylan had done a few years just before!

I just don't want to see excellent albums of music, not get a listen by new fans, because they can not get a "progressive" vote in this board, and you already know that metal fans will immediately say that S&G is crap, not progressive, and not worthy of it, as if they had heard more than 5 minutes worth of it, to be able to even determine how good they really were opposite the carbon copy of the metal format!

Just to be contrarian, yes, I would like to see S&G on PA ... because great music deserves to be mentioned and noticed ... not forgotten into the scrap heap of your local FM station playing tapes of music they own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2023 at 08:00
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

This is, by far, one of the saddest things I have ever seen and read.

There has been for hundreds of years, and even millenia, a lot of music, and arts that we have never heard or enjoyed or could possibly appreciate, and to decide if they deserve to be "progressive" somewhere in PA, or elsewhere, is scary ... how can such wonderful material and music, be ignored? By people that are so star struck by the the electric components and definition of "progressive music", that something original and completely different can not even be appreciate and the best many of us here can do is say ... NO ... 

Perhaps PA or someone else needs a new genre ... "quasi progressive" and it could/should include a lot of things that were pop music, mostly, but they had their expressive qualities that gave them a better artistic quota than simple pop music. A&G fit in places a lot more than just pop music ... but they also "stretched" things like Bob Dylan had done a few years just before!

I just don't want to see excellent albums of music, not get a listen by new fans, because they can not get a "progressive" vote in this board, and you already know that metal fans will immediately say that S&G is crap, not progressive, and not worthy of it, as if they had heard more than 5 minutes worth of it, to be able to even determine how good they really were opposite the carbon copy of the metal format!

Just to be contrarian, yes, I would like to see S&G on PA ... because great music deserves to be mentioned and noticed ... not forgotten into the scrap heap of your local FM station playing tapes of music they own.

Nobody ignores Simon & Garfunkel, they are one if the greatest bands to have ever existed. So, your assessment is wrong there. 

I have also never seen a metalhead insult Simon & Garfunkel. I have listened to all sorts of metal music/subgenres all my life, i have always loved the music of Simon & Garfunkel. So you are wrong again (and kinda insulting to fans & listeners of metal music). 

I also don't think their music will be forgotten, I don't know where you got this idea from. Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2024 at 16:27

Ha! I've told you! Prog is pog!

But yeah. The reason for this bump was that I did a search if any PA user has used the slang word "pog" here and apparently no. Only as a misspelling of "prog".

Edited by Hrychu - February 11 2024 at 16:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Octopus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2024 at 00:17
Do it... If you put your finger over Paul Simons face, it looks like Art  Garfunkel has a huge Cossack moustache. Go on, do it... Simon and Garfunkel  - iFunny
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2024 at 05:02
Originally posted by Jacob Schoolcraft Jacob Schoolcraft wrote:

...
I agree and I believe that music has no barriers therefore puts a limitation on being accurate at categorizing its style. It's been complicated for Progressive Rock websites to decide on an appropriate method of categorization for everyone.
...
I agree and I believe that music has no barriers therefore puts a limitation on being accurate at categorizing its style. It's been complicated for Progressive Rock websites to decide on an appropriate method of categorization for everyone.
...
My sympathies go out to people who try and create a coherent Progressive Rock website. Music has no barriers. If you've been a professional musician the whole of your life that becomes a fact merely through your decades of experience. 
...

Hi,

The very nature of "progressive" is being different and making the work be/sound not a regular part of the main stream of what has happened to pop music over the years. Thus, the very definition of several areas, is limiting, and it probably should be to help identify some work ... but in the process, it leaves behind a lot of work that ... crosses/bridges the very details that we thought made this designation, or that designation.

I'm not sure there is a proper answer, since the minute we find one, something will come along and give us another view or interpretation.

There is one thing that bothers me ... and it is the idea that a lot of the "progressive" definitions are designed towards the British side of things, and this hurts many American bands and artists, because the ideas where many of them came from is completely different and it's almost like saying that the era of American folks described by DE is not important, but the one that is visible in the British Isles is all that the definition adheres to ... and this is sad.

I think that we have to make these definitions cleaner and more appropriate to the work of a lot of musicians ... we are basically saying that any folk music that has progressive elements in China and Japan can not possibly stand up, because it is not English, or even (heaven forbid!) American. And the work by Japanese and Chinese folks in the folk are is quite visible ... but not always heard ... at least the use of traditional instruments is there along more modern electric stuff.

All it really says, is that the definitions of various areas, is not clean, and was not properly defined, and we should/could (maybe!) start cleaning that up, in the hopes that we can strengthen the work that we love that is called "progressive" ... before we kill it with really poor "un-musical" definitions that make no sense ... my feeling for stuff that is defined by "sound" and not its music! You take the electricity out, and the music has not enough ... to be anywhere near "progressive".



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2024 at 17:03
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Did you post this in the suggest new artist section also?

Anyway, I enjoy S&G but I'm not familiar enough with their music to know if they are considered prog folk or not. My opinion based on what I know would be to say no they aren't. 


I have only heard their hits, which I like a lot, though I would never think to consider them prog. But now you have made me curious to get to know some more from them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2024 at 22:48
Quite clearly not prog folk. I think if progressive pop was created on PA as another sub genre then they could be considered for that but generally those types of artists (10CC and The Beatles are the most obvious ones) are only under Prog Related or Proto Prog and so not part of the main forum.
Pedro wants to make the case that the 'English definition' is a lot of what is called progressive rock but then it's still widely accepted (even here) that the first full blown recognised prog album is King Crimson's debut. After that Yes, ELP and Genesis made it what it was. Take those away and this forum doesn't exist and we don't have this discussion. We could reasonably go back earlier to Zappa and The MOI or early Floyd but then I still don't see how the helps the argument that S&G should be in. We need to be careful about not just rewriting history. A lot of that goes on around here as it is!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 02:29
I love S&G (Paul Simon more), but I don't think they can fit in any prog or even related category. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 03:38
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
This is, by far, one of the saddest things I have ever seen and read.
One of the saddest things you've ever seen and read - is two pages on a forum that you haven' actually bothered to read. Because if you had, you would have noticed that everyone acknowledges their importance, respects them and in fact loves them dearly. Like myself - who can be added to the list of commenters that don't think their musical output has much in common with Prog Folk regardless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 04:01
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
This is, by far, one of the saddest things I have ever seen and read.
One of the saddest things you've ever seen and read - is two pages on a forum that you haven' actually bothered to read. Because if you had, you would have noticed that everyone acknowledges their importance, respects them and in fact loves them dearly. Like myself - who can be added to the list of commenters that don't think their musical output has much in common with Prog Folk regardless.

Hi,

I think you misinterpret the comment. Our house had all the S&G albums, and I am not sure there wasn't one of them I did not like.

What bothers me, is that we have a "definition" for various parts of what we consider "progressive", but we intentionally leave out some folks ... because they do not fit. 

I'm not sure about the idea that if we leave out KC, Yes, Genesis and JT that "progressive" would not exist ... I find that thinking ethnocentric and not quite fair to the rest of the world ... China is far bigger than the rest and they likely have a lot more music, for example, that transcends the definitions of "progressive" but they do not have the media that listens or discusses this at all ... otherwise, we likely would have the idea that England invented the world and the cups of tea ... to show us something else. 

The only thing I do not agree to, is the sense of "boundaries" in regards to England, or America, or in the next century China, that makes it look like the imperialistic world of 1000 years ago ... and then Portugal and Spain owned the world, and then the English Navy owned the world, then a few bands in England owned the world. It's become a false history since we now know and understand that there was a lot more that we were not aware at the time ... America had just as much "progressive" music, that we consistently ignore and do not appreciate, and the story of the "folk" music in America was huge in the 20th century here in America, although it has a lot less historical stories than England, or Ireland, for example ... and even Europe, where at the VERY LEAST there is an appreciation for the ART, and the ARTS, something that America has not respected much in its history at all ... something that finally hit the "big time" with movies, and then the media in America ... who (likely) was too big a place to have a "scene" ... and instead it ended up with 3 or 4 scenes (I joke north, south, east and west!!!) ... that a media could have discussed properly. 

S&G, when placed in a "staff" of the history of music in America in the 20th century, would be progressive, and much stronger than many other more conventional folk artists, whose voicings were their art, not the actual music that accompanied the words, and this finally hit the airwaves in America loud and clear when Bob Dylan went electric ... a perfect example that did not bother the English when it's music became more modernized ... which we accept as "progressive", but the relative same thing in America is not acceptable.

America had many bands that could/should have had the chance, but the problem is that there is East, West, Central, and South ... and we have not been able to come up with a DECENT history of them all and their value in order to present something that shows the progressive nature of all the arts and specially music. But we can take 4 or 5 bands in England and say they invented the world.

S&G probably deserve better ... if we take a serious look at history, instead of 5 bands!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 06:27
But does anyone have an idea what the deal with Paul Simon's chrome egg cup is?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 08:07
I would have never thought that Simon & Garfunkel would be considered prog in any way shape or form. Singer songwriters / Folk / Pop / .   Loved by folkies and Classic Rock fans. I like them. But much like Dylan, Tom Rush or Joan Baez, I don’t believe they come close to progressive Rock. Great Music though! I have no idea what that object in his hand is?   Good eye.

Edited by Valdez1 - February 13 2024 at 08:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 09:06
Simon has a fence knob.

I hardly think that we would be comparing to just five bands for inclusion in Prog Folk. With the English ones I'd sooner compare the case to say Pentangle or The Incredible String Band than Yes or early Jethro Tull (despite JT being included in Prog Folk). I love music by S&G and that should not affect whether I think the music is the kind of progressive folk that I would expect in PA even if it can be progressive in its own way. There is music from the US from the 60s included in Prog Folk (quite a bit in Psyche and other categories). Of course there are precedents to consider.... It's not like the US lacks much representation in PA for 60s to early 70s music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 09:36
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Simon has a fence knob.

If Simon had a fence knob
He'd be fencing in the morning
He'd be fencing in the evening
All over this land
It's a fence knob of danger
It's a fence knob of warning
It's a fence knob of love
Between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land.

Ummm...sorry. Was feeling a bit folky this morning. Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 09:52
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Simon has a fence knob.

If Simon had a fence knob
He'd be fencing in the morning
He'd be fencing in the evening
All over this land
It's a fence knob of danger
It's a fence knob of warning
It's a fence knob of love
Between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land.

Ummm...sorry. Was feeling a bit folky this morning. Embarrassed

Cracked me up!!! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 14 2024 at 05:37
Originally posted by Valdez1 Valdez1 wrote:

I would have never thought that Simon & Garfunkel would be considered prog in any way shape or form. Singer songwriters / Folk / Pop / .   Loved by folkies and Classic Rock fans. I like them. But much like Dylan, Tom Rush or Joan Baez, I don’t believe they come close to progressive Rock. Great Music though! I have no idea what that object in his hand is?   Good eye.

I totally agree. I've never considered Simon & Garfunkel to be Prog Folk either. Their style of Folk Rock is far more orthodox, although their religion shouldn't even come into it. Tongue


Edited by Psychedelic Paul - February 14 2024 at 05:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 14 2024 at 15:50
Simon & Garfunkel are truly great, but I cannot link them to prog in any way.
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