Fragile is Superestimated?

moshkito wrote: Big Sky wrote: ... Even among enthusiasts of Progressive Rock, it has been my experience that RIO and Zeuhl genres of Prog Rock, for example, are just a bridge to far for them. I'm one that doesn't really like the bands in those categories, but I don't dismiss them as untalented hacks. Some of the artists in these genres I have great respect for even if I don't like much of their music. Frank Zappa would be foremost among those artists. ... Liking or not liking is interesting. I have not, for over 30 years found any music, I did not enjoy, and the "like" and "dislike" thing that modern users love to agree on (gives them more of a socialist feel being in agreement with others!!!) is not something that I indulge in, or appreciate. ART, of any kind, is about appreciating the human spirit, and its expression, thus not liking this or that, is simply an emotional perception on our own, and HAS NOTHING TO DO with the art work, generally speaking! That there are different genres, or ideas or styles, is not a problem ... unless you think that everyone has to sound the same, and then ... you would not belong in a progressive therapy group like PA. You, at least, say you appreciate their talent ... but I think that your comments would be much different if that were true, though ... I might be wrong here, but the tone is not favorable in my reading this. Big Sky wrote: ... In my opinion, only ELP at that time was putting out music like Yes that was uncompromising and displayed top level musicianship but sold in the millions and made them a top touring band. King Crimson never had that level of success. ... Strange that you mention KC and don't realize that no band has had more changes and experiments (even on stage) than you have suggested. ELP was not as much of a lack of compromise on stage, because a lot of what they did was difficult and required timing and attention. You don't do a Copland on an empty stadium so beautifully without knowing what you are doing and being detailed and attentive to the work you are doing ... though I think that there are/were moments that were left open for a ween bit of improvising or stretching the piano or the guitar. YES, in my book, quit after TFTO and kinda copied RW's comments, that the curry was better than the music. For me, RELAYER was a finger to a lot of fans, and SH going nuts, was probably another finger ... because he had a few moments that he flew in TFTO that folks did not like! The stunning part of it, was that the album did magnificently and they ate crow from it, and ended up having to play it! By then, I had already fallen off YES, because it wasn't exactly about the music, but about (supposedly) being really hip and cool and SELLING! [QUOTE=Big Sky] ... Pink Floyd never displayed the levels of musicianship that other Prog bands did and generally, their music was more digestible, being much less complex. One can see how they hit it big. ...

Starting with DSOTM, PF was NEVER about the musicianship show off that rock'n'rollers cheap bands like to showcase ... with solos that supposedly make them better than all the others.

With DSOTM, PF was able to add their sound bites and bits together with the music, and create a sort of "musical", which was a problem ... in one thought/idea. The show ended up being mechanical so it could stay/follow the movie and all the effects and not get disjointed and looking bad. As such, it took away the freedoms for improvising and having more fun, and you had to stay attentive to be "right there" where you needed to be. AND, in a few years time, the visuals created a complete show ... called THE WALL.

You can not define PF without finding out about their history with bits and sound bites which went right back to the first days after Syd Barrett, whose many sound bites were used A LOT ... scream your last scream old fan without a basket!!!!! And then realize how much of a story these visuals became. Sadly, you would not know about this ... unless you had the PF bootlegs at the time, which included all the bits between the pieces of music ... my thoughts are that the keyboards, and early synths and equipment, were being setup for the next piece ... PF was (probably) quite ahead in terms of the technology of things, or a DSOTM and following work, would just have been another song!

Sadly, if all one can do is look at PF as a bunch of songs, the rest of its history is not necessary or important!
...

One last note. I think your evaluation of a bands stature is strange, and it was not the same everywhere. Paris, London, LA, NY would have very different ideas, and sold differently. TFTO did really well in the East Coast because it was appreciated. Here in the West Coast it was trashed, and YES only got an ovation at the Long Beach Arena (TFTO show I saw!) when they played the first bars of Roundabout ... which was SICK. I started crying and left the arena ... the MUSIC was not important, because only the song mattered ... the sickest moment in my whole life, right up there with the locusts and idiots that were fighting for pieces of the pig at Anaheim Stadium ... and PF should have stopped the show and request those fans be removed ... they were not there for the music ... PERIOD.

Yo have to draw a line somewhere ... if you're not there for the music and what it inspires you inside, what are you there for?

Trashing FRAGILE is really sad ... and not necessary, unless folks think that bands are their toilet paper and nothing else!
[/QUOTEto "

Moshkito,

I think you miss the point of my post, nor was I attempting to address every issue with each band. Some responses to your points.

1) The Art / Music / etc question. I don't enjoy certain types of music or movies or art. Art is entirely subjective whether you "like" it or not. I don't care for rap or most country music. There are some tracks that I have "liked", but those are two types of music I don't usually "enjoy" to listen to.

Among movies, musicals and love stories are not something I generally enjoy. My wife doesn't like most sci-fi movies. My son and I are big into sci-fi. This has nothing to do with the "appreciation" of the arts or your reference to "socialist feel." It's just not my cup of tea. I really don't care if it's something you will not "indulge" in or "appreciate." Seriously I don't care.

2) I'm quite aware that King Crimson has had many changes to their lineup. That has nothing to do with my post. Yes had quite of few lineup changes too. My mention of Crimson was only they did not achieve near the level of success, in popularity or music sales of albums, that Yes or ELP enjoyed. Yes and ELP were selling out large arenas such as Madison Square Garden or filling out football fields. Their album sales dwarf King Crimson. They were doing this while recording music that was for the most part not radio friendly.

3) Pink Floyd. I was not attempting to define their music. I was not making a point about their use of experimenting with technology, their history or whether Syd Barrett was off his rocker. My only point was that it's understandable why Floyd became popular. Their music was not nearly as complex as most of their Prog bretheren. As a band, they did not have the musical chops associated with Prog and therefore that was never a highlight of their music.

It was songs, such as Money, Have a Cigar, Run Like Hell and Comfortably Numb that most people heard on the radio and gravitated to. My wife bought DSOTM long ago ( late 80s when she was in high school) before we ever met. I just asked her why she bought DSOTM. Friend of hers liked Floyd and played their music in the car often. In particular, she said she liked the song "Time" and "Money." Found out those songs were on DSOTM and bought the CD. Nothing more or less.

4) You have a different opinion on Yes than I do. It seems that with Tales going forward you had "fallen off Yes" and did not "like" their music going forward. I'm fine with that. No philosophical puffery needed to explain why.

5) Popularity was addressed only in a general sense. In the US, Prog artists usually have been more popular in the NE of the United States than other sections of US. The US is quite large though. By comparison, Great Britain is about the same size as Oregon. Many reasons why music ( or any interest) may be more popular in one region or country. In sports, NASCAR has long been more popular in the South. Lacrosse was for much of it's history popular only in the Mid-Atlantic States and Long Island. Cricket is not even a thought in the US. But, it is quite popular in India, Pakistan, Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain to name a few.

verslibre wrote: But is Fragile supercalifragilisticexpialidocious?

I'd say it's more supercalifragilisticexpialidocious than it is southernplayalisticadillacmuzik

Pedro...I think you might be scaring some of these kids.   

Which one's Pink?

moshkito wrote: Disconnect wrote: Pedro...I think you might be scaring some of these kids.    Hi, It's not meant to. However, when someone is writing from a lack of perspective point of view (as I see it!!!), chances are that what is being said will be limited, and in this case, leaves behind the history of the band, for example, and the comments, then, will not be in sync with the artist at all. This is the sad side of the pop music thing, with folks in love with a lot of songs, but a disregard for the history and the work an artist has created during their time. I'm somewhat lucky that my time has been during the fights for ... many things ... in the 1960's and then later through the music that decorated the FM radio band in America, only for it to be electrocuted out of extinction by corporate America taking the stations away from their independence, and then turning them all into mindless albino noodles, and calling it "classics" which is another word for repeat, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat, rinse ... all the products they "own" ... and no listeners give a damn. I, originally, thought the Internet would help bring back the "music" and it has done well in that regard, but so much of the Internet these days is owned by the same companies that raped the FM radio stations, that it is difficult for me to let that thought go ... maybe the day of my last breadth! Scaring folks can only happen when they are not smart enough to grow up and learn. You can't live the life of the tin drum, and get away with it, maybe for a time, but in the end, when things change, one will be lost and even more scared. Fear ... you have nothing to fear except the fear itself! I didn't create that line, but it's very true. If someone feels scared ... so be it! Who am I to change their Dorian Gray ideas?

Moshkito,

I did not think I needed to give a dissertation on the subject. I mean, I do have a MA in History with a concentration on the American South from the Sectionalism Period through the American Civil War (1820-1865). My secondary concentration is on the Historiography of the Cold War (1947-1989). Maybe I could have found a way to get that into the discussion about Pink Floyd.

Seriously, it was a simple explanation I gave why certain bands hit it big. In music, generally, simpler music is easier to grasp. More complex music, such as lets say Stravinsky's Petrushka or Rite of Spring call for more active listening. Indian Classical music, can be even more demanding with it's use of microtones and generally not following the Western tradition of Harmony. And before you interject with there is two traditions of Indian Classical Music, I'm aware of that fact. The Northern (Hindustani) and Southern (Carnatic).

So dude, it's not for lack of perspective. This is a forum. I'm not writing a book. Besides going off on some philosophical meanderings, history and you had to be there man, you just don't understand, you never disproved my original point. My advise is get off the acid.

octopus-4 wrote: For me The Yes Album, Fragile and Close To The Edge are a single thing. I can listen to them three in a row and I feel them like a triple LP

I agree with this and ratings are contextual... rated compared to what and by whom? Those 3 albums are a tracery of discovery and growth. Fascinating to listen to all 3 in a row because the context is there. Ive been a professional critic for over 25 years so I quibble.

moshkito wrote: Disconnect wrote: Pedro...I think you might be scaring some of these kids.    Hi, It's not meant to. However, when someone is writing from a lack of perspective point of view (as I see it!!!), chances are that what is being said will be limited, and in this case, leaves behind the history of the band, for example, and the comments, then, will not be in sync with the artist at all. This is the sad side of the pop music thing, with folks in love with a lot of songs, but a disregard for the history and the work an artist has created during their time. I'm somewhat lucky that my time has been during the fights for ... many things ... in the 1960's and then later through the music that decorated the FM radio band in America, only for it to be electrocuted out of extinction by corporate America taking the stations away from their independence, and then turning them all into mindless albino noodles, and calling it "classics" which is another word for repeat, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat, rinse ... all the products they "own" ... and no listeners give a damn. I, originally, thought the Internet would help bring back the "music" and it has done well in that regard, but so much of the Internet these days is owned by the same companies that raped the FM radio stations, that it is difficult for me to let that thought go ... maybe the day of my last breadth! Scaring folks can only happen when they are not smart enough to grow up and learn. You can't live the life of the tin drum, and get away with it, maybe for a time, but in the end, when things change, one will be lost and even more scared. Fear ... you have nothing to fear except the fear itself! I didn't create that line, but it's very true. If someone feels scared ... so be it! Who am I to change their Dorian Gray ideas?

That was a frickin' AWESOME POST, Pedro! Your Reagan and Cali references/quote remind me of when I discovered that the reason pornography has been protected under the 1st Amendment was due to a judge back in the 1900s who ruled that allowing pornography to exist/be available to the masses might cut down on the population boom of the lower classes! (More masturbation = less sexual intercourse!)

And I completely agree that what is popular is not necessarily indicative of how art is progressing, growing, or expanding--might even be more indicative of OTHER influences trying to shape culture/thinking of the masses!

BrufordFreak wrote: ... That was a frickin' AWESOME POST, Pedro! Your Reagan and Cali references/quote remind me of when I discovered that the reason pornography has been protected under the 1st Amendment was due to a judge back in the 1900s who ruled that allowing pornography to exist/be available to the masses might cut down on the population boom of the lower classes! (More masturbation = less sexual intercourse!) ...

Hi,

Considering the advances in medicine and what folks can do to prevent this and that ... I think the judge's line was in jest and a really good finger to a lot of religious bs!

BrufordFreak wrote: ... And I completely agree that what is popular is not necessarily indicative of how art is progressing, growing, or expanding--might even be more indicative of OTHER influences trying to shape culture/thinking of the masses!

I think this is the part of PA that hurts ... and seeing folks doing the same things that "art rock" and "progressive music" got away from in the late 1960's and early 1970's, just shows how ingrained in the commercial soup people are. Folks keep trying to get me to show a "list", or "rank" some of the things that I love so much, but, they do not understand that I simply can't ... my tastes are huge, and varied, and not centered on a favorite at all ... the one favorite that gets replaced next week with another song, showing the conceptual ability of that person's choices, maybe???

Since seeing the Great American Radio Rape of the FM band in late 1970's and how submissive and careless we have become was a sad thing ... no one gave a damn, and helped make sure that the elected folks would make sure that this could not happen again ... what they did in LA to one station, btw, should have gone all the way to the Supreme Court and a blatant attack on the freedom of speech, in this case the ART of MUSIC, and its strength ... all it showed is that some republicans knew that it was way too liberal for them to get re-elected again ... and the worst? In the following years the FCC, a republican castle and fort, voted to allow one corporation to own more than one station in any area ... thus, we could now see that in places like LA it was one corporation, in SF another, in NY, maybe two corporations ... and they were all playing the same thing! And telling everyone that it was about "the classics" ... and we didn't go to the polls to remove the liars! AND, worse, we still don't!

And we allow a guy to continue assaulting your freedom of speech, specially in the arts!

Hrychu wrote: Themistocles wrote: ratings are contextual... rated compared to what and by whom? One of the biggest flaws of the Progarchives communinity is that they're a little hyperfixated on giving albums numerical score and ranking everything. Because ratings, as you said, are contextual, such lists are doomed to defy the whole purpose of rankings. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That's my 2 cents again. Also, congrats on your first post here, Jeff. 😎

Thank you so much.

Well its a community so there's always a part that tries to develop a consensus and ratings/rankings is just a sort of epistomological discourse.... angels on the head of a pin stuff but feedback in whatever form is so important. I remember having pina coladas with the Dandy Warhols and CTT threw out a good-natured barb about me being "a scumbag critic" I laughed and I explained a professional art critic is a bit different than a music one. For music the fanbase is cultivated and you know if you are moving some people in a concert and through album listens/sales so critical response is a bit besides the point. For visual artists tons can show up for your opening and you may or may not make sales but a lot of people will be polite and say "good show", damn you with faint praise or simply lie to you. You really dont know who to believe... an established critic like myself sees so many art shows and compare similar or related things that the ability to get a contextualized response... even a negative one is very valuable and earned. A response says, you are moving the needle. I was a music critic for diesel music magazine in the 90's too. I always ask myself is this adding energy or is it just parasitic?

I do feel like a place like PA is valuable. People very much care. What the ratings kinda miss is the potential energy and amplitude of an album from song to song and album to album. That's what I look for. My favorite albums are transition albums like Miles Smiles or Rush's Permanent Waves. Perhaps not each's signature efforts but you really get the sense of Becoming in them.

Back to the subject, thats why I love Fragile so much... its that immanent sense of becoming. Close to the edge is a masterpiece but Fragile IS the yes album Im drawn the most to because there is this sense of immanence.   Is it superestimated? I dont think so... its an amazing album and everyone on it is so inspiring especially Bruford, Squire and Howe. ... and Wakeman?   geeze talk about becoming?

People shout the names of famous musicians at me all the time (its silly but I get it) but I was so happy the time someone said I reminded them of Rick Wakeman, My GF loves his keyboard playing but I showed her that picture of him in a wizard's hat atop a white horse and she said... the two of you must never be in the same room together.

But I digress... Fragile is just that, a fragile crystalline structure that is becoming and growing. A massive transition album not for just the band but music in general. Roundabout was the first real Prog song I heard and I loved it instantly, more than most music. That album has immense amplitude and unlocked so many other things.

Edited by Themistocles - 8 minutes ago at 14:40