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Angelo View Drop Down
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Yes. Also they're mastered differently from CD because below certain frequency it is impossible to put low tones in vinyl in stereo. John Mitchell (!) explained that to me last week,and will explain more next month :)
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Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Yes. Also they're mastered differently from CD because below certain frequency it is impossible to put low tones in vinyl in stereo. John Mitchell (!) explained that to me last week,and will explain more next month :)
 
Angelo SmileHug
Yes I understand that, but if the initial studio recording is digital, in this case specific case in terms of recent releases makes the argument of being best quite futile.  Wink
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True!
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But also not true. The CD and vinyl of Lonely Robot are really different in sound in some places, that's why I'm going t be talking to John a bit more. The difference do warrant a better/worse discussion.
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The attraction of vinyl over "digital" is for what vinyl adds to the recording, not for what "digital" removes or omits. I don't believe this to be a better/worse-thing but a difference-thing

Because cutting vinyl is a mechanical process there are limitations of what the lathe can do. For example, the groove is cut at 45°, like this:
Which means that mono signals move the stylus from side-to-side while stereo signals move it from side-to-side and up-and-down. This is all very straight-forward and simple enough until you start to record low frequency notes like a bass guitar or a kick-drum which produces large excursions on the cutting needle. This is fine in mono where (L-R)=0 and there is no up-and-down movement, but in stereo this large up-and-down movement can result in groove that is too shallow and the cutting stylus can even lift way from the cutting surface completely. RIAA pre-emphasis can alleviate some of this because it drastically attenuates all low-frequencies prior to the disc being cut but it is not a complete "cure". Therefore in mixes for vinyl it is important that bass notes are recorded in mono and positioned dead-centre of the sound stage - this phase "correction" of bass notes sounds different. 

The problem there is now the bass guitar and the kick drum lay on top of each other in the sound stage and they can sound either muddled or one can mask the other. A fix for this is to use a notch filter to essentially cut a hole in the frequency spectrum of one to allow the other room to breath.

Because this is a limitation of the cutting process, not the recording process this has to be done regardless of what the original source recording was - whether digital or analogue (tape) it makes no difference.

Digital media and analogue tape is not restricted in this way so bass notes can be recorded in stereo at full amplitude and we can separate bass guitar and kick drum spatially in the sound stage so they do not sit on top of each other. That said, notch-filtering the bass guitar a little improves its separation from the kick drum in digital recordings too.

However, it does mean that transferring digital studio recordings to vinyl is not straight-forward and requires a completely different mix, especially at these low-frequencies. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now whether it makes a difference that a 24-bit 96KHz mix from a digital studio is used to create the vinyl master instead of an analogue mix from an analogue studio is another matter. Analogue tape has its own limitations that also adds to the recording. Once again this is not a better/worse-thing but a difference-thing.
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Kati View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The attraction of vinyl over "digital" is for what vinyl adds to the recording, not for what "digital" removes or omits. I don't believe this to be a better/worse-thing but a difference-thing

Because cutting vinyl is a mechanical process there are limitations of what the lathe can do. For example, the groove is cut at 45°, like this:
Which means that mono signals move the stylus from side-to-side while stereo signals move it from side-to-side and up-and-down. This is all very straight-forward and simple enough until you start to record low frequency notes like a bass guitar or a kick-drum which produces large excursions on the cutting needle. This is fine in mono where (L-R)=0 and there is no up-and-down movement, but in stereo this large up-and-down movement can result in groove that is too shallow and the cutting stylus can even lift way from the cutting surface completely. RIAA pre-emphasis can alleviate some of this because it drastically attenuates all low-frequencies prior to the disc being cut but it is not a complete "cure". Therefore in mixes for vinyl it is important that bass notes are recorded in mono and positioned dead-centre of the sound stage - this phase "correction" of bass notes sounds different. 

The problem there is now the bass guitar and the kick drum lay on top of each other in the sound stage and they can sound either muddled or one can mask the other. A fix for this is to use a notch filter to essentially cut a hole in the frequency spectrum of one to allow the other room to breath.

Because this is a limitation of the cutting process, not the recording process this has to be done regardless of what the original source recording was - whether digital or analogue (tape) it makes no difference.

Digital media and analogue tape is not restricted in this way so bass notes can be recorded in stereo at full amplitude and we can separate bass guitar and kick drum spatially in the sound stage so they do not sit on top of each other. That said, notch-filtering the bass guitar a little improves its separation from the kick drum in digital recordings too.

However, it does mean that transferring digital studio recordings to vinyl is not straight-forward and requires a completely different mix, especially at these low-frequencies. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now whether it makes a difference that a 24-bit 96KHz mix from a digital studio is used to create the vinyl master instead of an analogue mix from an analogue studio is another matter. Analogue tape has its own limitations that also adds to the recording. Once again this is not a better/worse-thing but a difference-thing.
Your graph picture reminds me of Ian Anderson's codpiece LOL hahaha!!
Sorry, ok now on a serious note, thank you for posting this Dean, thank you very much, this is very interesting.
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Dean View Drop Down
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LOL that probably sums up my view of the better/worse debate - it's all a load of old cod. Wink

However, I do agree with you on the futility of such comparisons, even when people try to compare analogue studio mixes with those from digital studios. 
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Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Question here Ermm aren't most recent album recordings digital instead of analog tapes? Thus this would mean that the digital wav files or whatever thereafter would be converted into vinyl?
 
Hi Kati...welcome to our little warm analog/vinyl thread! Smile
 
Correct, many new recordings are done digital, simply it is easier and cheaper than the process of recording to a reel to reel tape as was done in the past. There are some bands doing this though as they want that vintage sound and also want to record "live" versus piecing together a bunch of digital files to make a song.
Recording live means the band has to be in sync the whole time, they have to have practiced and rehearsed the songs to be recorded so hopefully they can be recorded in one take, it's a much more involving process than just recording to digital. Sure it's probably more expensive and time consuming but I don't think the pyramids of Egypt were built in one day LOL.
 
Pretty much after this it becomes 100% subjective as to what you prefer.
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Ermm Recording "live" has absolutely nothing to do with anything.
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Yes. Also they're mastered differently from CD because below certain frequency it is impossible to put low tones in vinyl in stereo. John Mitchell (!) explained that to me last week,and will explain more next month :)
 
Angelo SmileHug
Yes I understand that, but if the initial studio recording is digital, in this case specific case in terms of recent releases makes the argument of being best quite futile.  Wink
 
Remember...what you hear on a CD, vinyl, cassette, DVD, Youtube, Spotify is not what you would hear in the studio. That digital recording is manipulated to sound like what the artist and engineer desire it to be, also do not forget that all sounds are analog and the process of converting to digital is not easy, that A-D conversion is also subjective based on the equipment being used.
 
Questioning what is best is fine....if not, from a music perspective this website would not exist. But that can be saved for another thread.....We try to be a non confrontational group on this vinyl thread.
 
Have a great day!
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Yes. Also they're mastered differently from CD because below certain frequency it is impossible to put low tones in vinyl in stereo. John Mitchell (!) explained that to me last week,and will explain more next month :)
 
Angelo SmileHug
Yes I understand that, but if the initial studio recording is digital, in this case specific case in terms of recent releases makes the argument of being best quite futile.  Wink
 
Remember...what you hear on a CD, vinyl, cassette, DVD, Youtube, Spotify is not what you would hear in the studio. That digital recording is manipulated to sound like what the artist and engineer desire it to be, also do not forget that all sounds are analog and the process of converting to digital is not easy, that A-D conversion is also subjective based on the equipment being used.
 
Questioning what is best is fine....if not, from a music perspective this website would not exist. But that can be saved for another thread.....We try to be a non confrontational group on this vinyl thread.
 
Have a great day!
The best way to avoid confrontation is not to confront people.

Please note once more that this thread is in the Tech Talk lounge, not the subjective opinion lounge. Geek


Edited by Dean - April 06 2015 at 10:19
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Meltdowner Meltdowner wrote:

Received another double LP from Sankt Otten yesterday. This one with many special guests, including Can's drummer and Ashra's drummer. This one, unlike the other, is a 33 RPM vinyl Tongue

 
Hey Sam.....I meant to ask what does this sound like? Both music and quality of vinyl pressing..?
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Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Yes. Also they're mastered differently from CD because below certain frequency it is impossible to put low tones in vinyl in stereo. John Mitchell (!) explained that to me last week,and will explain more next month :)
 
Angelo SmileHug
Yes I understand that, but if the initial studio recording is digital, in this case specific case in terms of recent releases makes the argument of being best quite futile.  Wink
 
Remember...what you hear on a CD, vinyl, cassette, DVD, Youtube, Spotify is not what you would hear in the studio. That digital recording is manipulated to sound like what the artist and engineer desire it to be, also do not forget that all sounds are analog and the process of converting to digital is not easy, that A-D conversion is also subjective based on the equipment being used.
 
Questioning what is best is fine....if not, from a music perspective this website would not exist. But that can be saved for another thread.....We try to be a non confrontational group on this vinyl thread.
 
Have a great day!
The best way to avoid confrontation is not to confront people.

Please note once more that this thread is in the Tech Talk lounge, not the subjective opinion lounge. Geek
 
Yes Dean we all know that here...There is a group of us who click here multiple times daily and post and we know it is the Tech Talk area.
But the mood here in this Vinyl thread has always been about our enjoyment of vinyl and not a digital vs analog comparison debate. Anyone is free to post here but I doubt any of us will participate in a "what is better discussion", we all admit listening to both CDs and Vinyl. Saying we are non-confrontational is perfectly fine, because if you read thru these 100 some odd pages that's how it reads.
 
There is no issue here....we are all good. Have a great day sir!
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Yes Dean we all know that here...There is a group of us who click here multiple times daily and post and we know it is the Tech Talk area.
But the mood here in this Vinyl thread has always been about our enjoyment of vinyl and not a digital vs analog comparison debate. Anyone is free to post here but I doubt any of us will participate in a "what is better discussion", we all admit listening to both CDs and Vinyl. Saying we are non-confrontational is perfectly fine, because if you read thru these 100 some odd pages that's how it reads.
 
There is no issue here....we are all good. Have a great day sir!
Fine José, I am a regular reader of this thread even though I have been made to feel unwelcome for posting factual technical information here. 

I have lost count of the number of times I have stated in black and white that it is NOT a matter of better/worse. In every thread I have participated in on this subject all I have ever said is that it is different and an issue of personal preference. You will also recall I have refused point-blank to chose one side or the other.

However, this is a tech talk thread and I found your post to be biased and subjective under the guise of being "tech talk". It has nothing to do with "live" recording; ALL studio recording is manipulated to sound like what the artist and engineer desire it to be, whether that is analogue or digital; and ALL conversion of sound pressure waves into electrical signals is subjectively based upon the equipment used. None of it is perfect. Analogue recording is exactly what is says - an analogy.


Now, I'm currently looking into having vinyl pressings made from a digital source. This is not cheap and I certainly would not embark on such an outlay if I thought it a waste of time and money. 
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This is a newish album and it sounds very nice on vinyl - not Prog but the Waterboys are an old fave and I still listen regularly & go to see them live.
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By "live" recording I was meaning that a band would record the song all together in the same room, rather than send emails with digital files and pc together a song. I never once alluded to this was bad/wrong/worse/better/best, does not matter to me since I have zero control over this.
 
Here also described by The Flower Kings when they recorded Desolation Rose.
 
"Never ones to rest on their laurels however, The Flower Kings immediately entered Fenix Studio in Sweden to start work on the recording of a brand new album. Recorded "live" in this classic, but modern, studio and on reel to reel tape, the album features a glut of grand vintage keyboards such as Hammond B3, Mellotron M 400, Fender Rhodes, Minimoog and a whole host of Tube amps.
The band even decided to try a new approach to writing and recording, assembling music on the spot and arranging it as a team." (http://www.insideoutmusic.com/artist.aspx?IdArtist=462)
 
At some point we hope to see you post pics or info of your turntable build and show some vinyl spinning on it and give us your impressions, I think all of us would like that.
 
 
 
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Originally posted by Daysbetween Daysbetween wrote:

This is a newish album and it sounds very nice on vinyl - not Prog but the Waterboys are an old fave and I still listen regularly & go to see them live.


 
Cool cover George! What is the music like?
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Hey Sam.....I meant to ask what does this sound like? Both music and quality of vinyl pressing..?
About the music you can read what I wrote, don't need to repeat myself Tongue
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=9321
In terms of quality, don't expect anything like KC and Rush's remasters, but it has very decent quality, although sometimes the lows seem a bit loud, but I don't know if it's from my TT Ermm It was pressed in Czech Republic, but it doesn't say where.

I understand Dean's point, he does not say one format is better than the other but different, it's just a matter of the listener's preference. It's like when I said I listened to my CD copy of The Division Bell and I felt like the bass guitar and the drums were unengaging. Probably others think the vinyl mastering is too aggressive.
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

By "live" recording I was meaning that a band would record the song all together in the same room, rather than send emails with digital files and pc together a song. I never once alluded to this was bad/wrong/worse/better/best, does not matter to me since I have zero control over this.
 
Here also described by The Flower Kings when they recorded Desolation Rose.
 
"Never ones to rest on their laurels however, The Flower Kings immediately entered Fenix Studio in Sweden to start work on the recording of a brand new album. Recorded "live" in this classic, but modern, studio and on reel to reel tape, the album features a glut of grand vintage keyboards such as Hammond B3, Mellotron M 400, Fender Rhodes, Minimoog and a whole host of Tube amps.
The band even decided to try a new approach to writing and recording, assembling music on the spot and arranging it as a team." (http://www.insideoutmusic.com/artist.aspx?IdArtist=462)
Okay, for the third and hopefully last time: "Live" recording has absolutely nothing to do with using digital recordings for vinyl pressing instead of analogue tape.

I never accused you of alluding that this is better or worse - I simply stated that it had absolutely nothing to do with anything. Certainly it has absolutely nothing to do with anything that Sonia was talking about because a track can be recorded live in a studio by a real live band playing in unison (not "synch") using real live instruments onto digital media just as readily as it can onto an analogue media. The format of the mixing desk and the media used are completely and utterly irrelevant. Multi-track recording pre-dates digital media by a very long time, as does piecing together a song from lots of individual takes - all these techniques were pioneered in an "analogue" studio long before the conception of digital recording. Your subsequent comment that this method of recording requires the band to be rehearsed and have practised the songs prior to recording is perfectly correct however irrelevant that still is to anything - I could easily state that it also means that the musicians must know how to play their instruments (as that always seems to be the next line of that particularly specious argument) and that the recording engineer knows how to mic-up all the instruments correctly - both perfectly correct but wholly irrelevant points that have absolutely nothing to do with whether a master for a vinyl pressing comes from a digital or analogue source.

The point Sonia was making was that since some vinyl modern albums are created from digital masters doesn't this render the whole which is best debate redundant - both Angelo and I pointed out that they still sound different because the mix has to be different. [as well as it being impossible to record low frequencies in stereo on vinyl, you also have to watch out for the wild extremes at the top-end too - excessive sibilants and pesky cymbal crashes have to be brought under control otherwise the playback becomes distorted - the notion that vinyl has higher high-frequency capability is a myth]. 

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

 
At some point we hope to see you post pics or info of your turntable build and show some vinyl spinning on it and give us your impressions, I think all of us would like that. 
Possibly, however, it's unlikely I'll be giving my impressions of it - that's not something I do.
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^ Dean everything you state I already know about, nothing you have stated is new to me. I have a very good understanding of how a recording goes from the studio to the pressing plant to the record store and to my turntable.
She also said the "initial studio recording is digital", it's analog first then becomes digital once it passes thru an ADC. Then to hear thru speakers, headphones what was converted to digital, it needs to pass thru another converter, a DAC...You know this as well as I do. I am sure others understand also.
 
I always appreciate you explaining all this from a technical perspective since you have an electronics background.
 
That's too bad we will not hear your impressions of your work on rebuilding your table.
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