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SteveG 
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Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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 Posted: April 04 2024 at 06:21 |
 suitkees wrote:
^^ No, I'm just very surprised about what you think to be my "premise", because it's not. From nothing, really nothing of what I've said in this thread could be deduced that I think that "Western democracy is largely intact, well-designed and effective, and that the major threat is the ultra-right". You were complaining about others twisting your words and misrepresenting what you said, but I've rarely seen such a flagrant example of complete misreading/misunderstanding and what the Germans call "Hineininterpretierung" (let's translate that with "overinterpretation"). And regarding your opinion that "democracy has been used as a facade for a de-facto tyrannical regime" shows that it is not worth discussing this kind of things with you because it is too ludicrous: if you really think that a capitalist democracy like the USA or European countries are of the same specimen as a tyrannical regime like North Korea, than I definitely can not take you serious anymore. I think you are confusing (ultra-liberal) captitalism with democracy, here (which would be another topic in which I might agree with many things you say, because I think the greedy and selfish stakeholders and bosses of the big companies have too much influence on politics and politicians...).
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I'm not sure who you're addressing but quoting previous posts does help with that.
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suitkees
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 19 2020
Location: France
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Points: 8808
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Posted: April 04 2024 at 06:30 |
(^ That's why I added a second "^" to the start of my post)
^^ Oh, I do agree that it is germane to the discussion (like the subject of "capitalism" is too), but when it leads to an oversimplification (and binary logic is generally that: an oversimplification) I don't think it adds much to a discussion. And other than the "stolen election" delusion (and what it leads to in some states, like voter suppression), I think another major flaw of US democracy is much more systemic, and that is the non-separation between executive powers and judicial powers: when judges are not ruling according to the law but according to an ideology, then I think there is something profoundly wrong with that system.
More generally: There are many different democratic systems: the US one is very different from the British one, which is very different from the French one which is very different from the Dutch one, and so on... They all have their flaws, they are all fallible, politicians are often corruptible, policies - especially in the capitalist democracies - have been too much determined by economic interests (and especially those of stakeholders and big companies) instead of the common good and the society as a whole, but I still think it is preferable over a tyranny.
Edited by suitkees - April 04 2024 at 06:35
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20525
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Posted: April 04 2024 at 06:38 |
suitkees wrote:
(^ That's why I added a second "^" to the start of my post)
^^ Oh, I do agree that it is germane to the discussion, but when it leads to an oversimplification (and binary logic is generally that: an oversimplification) I don't think it adds much to a discussion. And other than the "stolen election" delusion (and what it leads to in some states, like voter suppression), I think another major flaw of US democracy is much more systemic, and that is the non-separation between executive powers and judicial powers: when judges are not ruling according to the law but according to an ideology, then I think there is something profoundly wrong with that system.
There are many different democratic systems: the US one is very different from the British one, which is very different from the French one which is very different from the Dutch one, and so on... They all have their flaws, they are all fallible, politicians are often corruptible, policies - especially in the capitalist democracies - have been too much determined by economic interests (and especially those of stakeholders and big companies) instead of the common good and the society as a whole, but I still think it is preferable over a tyranny.
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I agree, but voting in a democracy is still a key to societal outcomes. In the US, the major oil companies work as a covert co-operative similar to a monopoly. Unless all voters to put a certain party in power in both the executive and legislative branches of government, they will be never be a congressional inquiry to determine if that is lawful. Again, another example without bias.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Points: 20627
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Posted: April 04 2024 at 06:56 |
suitkees wrote:
^^ No, I'm just very surprised about what you think to be my "premise", because it's not. From nothing, really nothing of what I've said in this thread could be deduced that I think that "Western democracy is largely intact, well-designed and effective, and that the major threat is the ultra-right". You were complaining about others twisting your words and misrepresenting what you said, but I've rarely seen such a flagrant example of complete misreading/misunderstanding and what the Germans call "Hineininterpretierung" (let's translate that with "overinterpretation"). |
Well, fair enough. I think that whatever your position is (you only describe it in a really nebulous way), if most of the contributions in this thread were off-topic to you then your position is so hard to grasp, and the bandwidth of permissible opinion so small that a discussion would be pointless.
suitkees wrote:
And regarding your opinion that "democracy has been used as a facade for a de-facto tyrannical regime" shows that it is not worth discussing this kind of things with you because it is too ludicrous: if you really think that a capitalist democracy like the USA or European countries are of the same specimen as a tyrannical regime like North Korea, than I definitely can not take you serious anymore. |
Now you've misrepresented me in a grotesque way, so I guess we're even 
suitkees wrote:
I think you are confusing (ultra-liberal) captitalism with democracy, here (which would be another topic in which I might agree with many things you say, because I think the greedy and selfish stakeholders and bosses of the big companies have too much influence on politics and politicians...).
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You are contradicting yourself here. You begin by suggesting that in our society capitalism and democracy are two clearly separate issues, but then you go on to describe the corruption that I have been talking about. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
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suitkees
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 19 2020
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 8808
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Posted: April 04 2024 at 07:27 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
suitkees wrote:
And regarding your opinion
that "democracy has been used as a facade for a de-facto tyrannical
regime" shows that it is not worth discussing this kind of things with
you because it is too ludicrous: if you really think that a capitalist
democracy like the USA or European countries are of the same specimen as
a tyrannical regime like North Korea, than I definitely can not take
you serious anymore. |
Now you've misrepresented me in a grotesque way, so I guess we're even  |
Tell me how I misrepresented that you think that
"democracy has been used as a facade for a de-facto tyrannical regime". I
just quoted you and gave examples of a democratic regime and a
tyrannical regime. According to your statement you think that the first
is the same as the second but just pretending to be different. Tell me
how I am misrepresenting.
suitkees wrote:
I
think you are confusing (ultra-liberal) captitalism with democracy,
here (which would be another topic in which I might agree with many
things you say, because I think the greedy and selfish stakeholders and
bosses of the big companies have too much influence on politics and
politicians...).
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You are contradicting yourself here. You begin by
suggesting that in our society capitalism and democracy are two clearly
separate issues, but then you go on to describe the corruption that I
have been talking about. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. |
No
I'm not contradicting myself, but you clearly have a problem of
comprehensive reading. Suffices to ask your self if democracy =
capitalism or if capitalism = democracy. And I didn't say
that "capitalism and democracy are two clearly
separate issues" - again a mis- or overinterpretation from your side (I'm convinced - especially in Western democracies - that they're interdependent).
I'm only saying that you are confusing the two (with your notion of the "rulers" in earlier posts).
As
with "conspiracy theories", and as I stated in my message above, it is
Germane to the discussion, and could be important to the subject of
teetering democracies (e.g. the influence of corporate lobbyists on
policy making; but this still doesn't mean that those lobbyists are the
"rulers"...).
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 20627
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Posted: April 04 2024 at 07:37 |
suitkees wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
suitkees wrote:
And regarding your opinion
that "democracy has been used as a facade for a de-facto tyrannical
regime" shows that it is not worth discussing this kind of things with
you because it is too ludicrous: if you really think that a capitalist
democracy like the USA or European countries are of the same specimen as
a tyrannical regime like North Korea, than I definitely can not take
you serious anymore. |
Now you've misrepresented me in a grotesque way, so I guess we're even |
Tell me how I misrepresented that you think that
"democracy has been used as a facade for a de-facto tyrannical regime". I
just quoted you and gave examples of a democratic regime and a
tyrannical regime. According to your statement you think that the first
is the same as the second but just pretending to be different. Tell me
how I am misrepresenting.
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I don't think that the West is "of the same specimen" as North Korea, and I never said so. They're both tyrannical, but that's about it. It's a complex subject, and I think that from what I've heard (I guess neither of us has ever been to North Korea), I think that people are much worse off in North Korea than in any western country.
suitkees wrote:
suitkees wrote:
I
think you are confusing (ultra-liberal) captitalism with democracy,
here (which would be another topic in which I might agree with many
things you say, because I think the greedy and selfish stakeholders and
bosses of the big companies have too much influence on politics and
politicians...).
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You are contradicting yourself here. You begin by
suggesting that in our society capitalism and democracy are two clearly
separate issues, but then you go on to describe the corruption that I
have been talking about. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. |
No
I'm not contradicting myself, but you clearly have a problem of
comprehensive reading. Suffices to ask your self if democracy =
capitalism or if capitalism = democracy. And I didn't say
that "capitalism and democracy are two clearly
separate issues" - again a mis- or overinterpretation from your side (I'm convinced - especially in Western democracies - that they're interdependent).
I'm only saying that you are confusing the two (with your notion of the "rulers" in earlier posts).
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Rulers make the rules. Who makes the rules in our society? If it's corporations and banks instead of our democratic governments, then I am not "confusing" the two - I am deliberately ignoring the one that is just for show and focusing on the one that is actually "ruling".
suitkees wrote:
As
with "conspiracy theories", and as I stated in my message above, it is
Germane to the discussion, and could be important to the subject of
teetering democracies (e.g. the influence of corporate lobbyists on
policy making; but this still doesn't mean that those lobbyists are the
"rulers"...).
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Well, what do you think? Are our democratic leaders making the rules, and corporations only have a minor influence, or is it the other way round?
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suitkees
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 19 2020
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 8808
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Posted: April 04 2024 at 07:54 |
Clearly, we have different ideas of what "tyrannical" is about. What is making discussing with you so difficult is that you use your own definitions of words that are far from their generally accepted meanings.
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Well, what do you think? Are our democratic leaders making the rules, and corporations only have a minor influence, or is it the other way round? |
And if you haven't understood it yet: I'm not willing to adopt your binary logic. It's more complex than that. The funny thing is that you say the same thing ("it's complex"), but you immediately revert to oversimplification. As I hinted at earlier: I think that corporations have too much influence on policy making and economically they definitely have a big part of responsability in how things are going. But when we're talking about democracy, than I cannot consider them to be the "rulers". Our politicians - and policiy making in general - is always lagging behind the evolution of our societies, but things are moving. They're not always moving into the right direction (see the Idea International report, linked to earlier), but I still cannot seriously consider our Western democracies to by tyrannies. That's where I stop taking you serious.
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 20627
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Posted: April 04 2024 at 12:17 |
suitkees wrote:
Clearly, we have different ideas of what "tyrannical" is about. What is making discussing with you so difficult is that you use your own definitions of words that are far from their generally accepted meanings. |
Are you sure? I looked up the definition and it's a reasonable fit. Incidentally, here's one of my all-time favorite releases which is right along my lines, they criticise society with a very similar reasoning, of course using a fictional storyline.
To quote from the lyrics:
"The point you fail to see is The simple beauty of our subtle mind control
Brainwashing media is all we need to set the boundaries Advanced communication
You're at our fingertips now
We own the TV stations
Entertainment, Publications
Wall street is our breeding ground
The sphere of our control extends through
Governments and leaders who will buy our arms
Yes buy our arms and run our evil wars
Run our evil wars run this evil world into the ground This is the new world order
This your corporate sponsored life"
suitkees wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Well, what do you think? Are our democratic leaders making the rules, and corporations only have a minor influence, or is it the other way round? |
And if you haven't understood it yet: I'm not willing to adopt your binary logic. It's more complex than that. The funny thing is that you say the same thing ("it's complex"), but you immediately revert to oversimplification. |
My view is anything but binary. But in discussions like these it is often useful to outline the extremes. This suggestion is - again - a misrepresentation of my position.
suitkees wrote:
As I hinted at earlier: I think that corporations have too much influence on policy making and economically they definitely have a big part of responsability in how things are going. But when we're talking about democracy, than I cannot consider them to be the "rulers". Our politicians - and policiy making in general - is always lagging behind the evolution of our societies, but things are moving. They're not always moving into the right direction (see the Idea International report, linked to earlier), but I still cannot seriously consider our Western democracies to by tyrannies. That's where I stop taking you serious.
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I read this as you not having a definitive position on the question, which is fine - as I wrote many posts earlier, I am not ASSERTING this position, it is only a suspicion, albeit a strong one. Whether you take me seriously or not - I really don't care.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20525
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Posted: April 04 2024 at 13:07 |
Tyranny, Conspiracy, Rulers. Perhaps we need to define these words as they seemed to have taken on a life of their own... 
Edited by SteveG - April 04 2024 at 13:08
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
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Posted: April 04 2024 at 14:07 |
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14179
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Posted: April 04 2024 at 16:29 |
Just this for now:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Lewian wrote:
5. To what extent do the "rulers" control information, and how? Why doesn't it bother the "rulers" that whoever is interested in delegitimising democracy these days can find information all over the place? |
We discussed this: "the system" does not care about dissent as long as it does not destabilise it. |
So under what conditions then would dissent be dangerous? What would destabilise the system? Can you point at anything specific "the system" has done to curb dangerous dissent? This is hard to see for me, as your construction of "the system" seems to be compatible with pretty much anything conceivable, and if this were indeed so, your view would be immune to falsification.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: April 04 2024 at 16:41 |
^ One specific mechanism to keep dissent under control is the manipulation of social media and search engine results. Dissent is de-emphasised, de-boosted, shadow-banned and so forth. Another tool is legislation to restrict free speech when it comes to criticising the government or specific actions of the government, as was done in Germany on several occasions in connection with the Covid pandemic or the Ukraine war. This is something that we usually criticise openly tyrannical regimes for, but when we do it, it is framed as a necessity in our fight against [the current evil thing], and media supports it by not covering it at all or framing it in the most positive way imaginable.
I could go on, but I hope you get the picture. "The system" uses a wide range of measures which are all pretty "soft" and not particularly oppressive individually, but they all work together to create an environment where dissent is pretty much a non-starter. Theoretically any person can speak up against these measures, but it never gains any momentum.
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
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Points: 14179
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Posted: April 04 2024 at 17:00 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ One specific mechanism to keep dissent under control is the manipulation of social media and search engine results. Dissent is de-emphasised, de-boosted, shadow-banned and so forth. |
This kind of manipulation certainly happens, although my impression is that there is a lot of dissent anyway, and manipulation may not so much target dissent but rather try to bind people to the social media that they're using. This involves showing even more dissent to people who dissent anyway. Also there are good reasons to believe that opponents of democracy put a lot of effort into manipulating social media according to their interests, and although they aren't necessarily stronger than those who try to defend the system, we can see a lot of this.
Other than that, I have close connections to Germany and see a lot of what's in the media there, and I saw and see dissent with the government's Covid and Ukraine policies all over the place. If anyone tries to shield the German government from criticism, they do a spectacularly awful job.
Edited by Lewian - April 05 2024 at 15:28
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10380
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Posted: April 04 2024 at 18:41 |
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There is plenty of dissent on the US internet, to add to the complexity of the situation, a good share of the dissent comes from Russians doing a bad job of posing as US citizens.
Edited by Easy Money - April 04 2024 at 20:02
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Points: 20627
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Posted: April 05 2024 at 00:14 |
^ How much comes from "Russians posing as US citizens"? You're stating this as fact, so you must have a really good source ...
Misinformation is of course another really effective tactic "the system" uses to create confusion and distrust. Since it controls the media, it is really easy to either create misinformation or to simply boost it when confused individuals post it. Simultaneously, as was already mentioned, it is equally easy to "de-boost" information which does not fit the current narrative. Gaslighting is also really easy to do (alternating between mutually-exclusive positions, as in "masks don't work" - "masks definitely work" - "only certain masks work" - "masks may be harmful" - ...).
The actual topics do not matter in the big picture. Covid masks, Russian spies, veganism, climate activism, gender issues, BLM, ... it's just an endless sea of misinformation. As a result, nobody really knows what to believe anymore, what others believe, how much actual dissent (against "the system") there is, and whether it is safe to publicly take a position that goes against the mainstream narrative.
And we haven't even discussed the topic of "fact-checkers" 
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - April 05 2024 at 00:39
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omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2011
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 5994
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Posted: April 05 2024 at 04:57 |
Easy Money wrote:
There is plenty of dissent on the US internet, to add to the complexity of the situation, a good share of the dissent comes from Russians doing a bad job of posing as US citizens. |
I've been accused of being Russian at least 50 times. I argue for "Peace-not-War" and they call me Ivan. I argue that American tax dollars should be spent on Americans, and they call me Comrade. Most Russians don't care what Americans think...not anymore. https://twitter.com/Sprinterfactory/status/1772633044614103182
Plenty of dissent? There isn't enough dissent. It's difficult to completely shut up half the population. 
Edited by omphaloskepsis - April 05 2024 at 04:59
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20525
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Posted: April 05 2024 at 05:03 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ Here you go:
Now what? |
Now what? I now believe that after reading a majority of the posts in this thread that there is little hope for democracy in the US. Democracy is of the people but only when they actually know what it entails. That's what.
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SteveG
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Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Posted: April 05 2024 at 05:05 |
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
There is plenty of dissent on the US internet, to add to the complexity of the situation, a good share of the dissent comes from Russians doing a bad job of posing as US citizens. |
I've been accused of being Russian at least 50 times. I argue for "Peace-not-War" and they call me Ivan. I argue that American tax dollars should be spent on Americans, and they call me Comrade. Most Russians don't care what Americans think...not anymore. https://twitter.com/Sprinterfactory/status/1772633044614103182
Plenty of dissent? There isn't enough dissent. It's difficult to completely shut up half the population. |
A Russian? That's off the mark. I would have called you a MAGA Trumper, and let it go at that.
Edited by SteveG - April 05 2024 at 05:07
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omphaloskepsis
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Joined: October 19 2011
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Posted: April 05 2024 at 05:15 |
SteveG wrote:
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
There is plenty of dissent on the US internet, to add to the complexity of the situation, a good share of the dissent comes from Russians doing a bad job of posing as US citizens. |
I've been accused of being Russian at least 50 times. I argue for "Peace-not-War" and they call me Ivan. I argue that American tax dollars should be spent on Americans, and they call me Comrade. Most Russians don't care what Americans think...not anymore. https://twitter.com/Sprinterfactory/status/1772633044614103182
Plenty of dissent? There isn't enough dissent. It's difficult to completely shut up half the population. |
A Russian? That's off the mark. I would have called you a MAGA Trumper, and let it go at that. |
Earlier in this thread you called me a "conspiracy theorist". You wrote, and I quote,
" I'm responding to a conspiracy theorist..."
Yet, you did not point out a conspiracy theory that I champion. Steve, you label people when you can't present an argument to counter their point of view. Instead of labeling people...present proof to back your claims.
Edited by omphaloskepsis - April 05 2024 at 05:27
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: April 05 2024 at 05:18 |
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^ I'm sure many participants of this thread (or the other one I created about the Ukraine war months ago) would call me a Trumper, or a Putin fanboy, or a nazi, or worse (if they could or if it was possible). Ironically I have repeatedly stated that I don't like Trump at all. I'm also not a US citizen, I'm a German living in Sweden. It's always interesting what people read into posts (and yes, I confess, I've also done that).
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