Favourite Neo-Prog Band |
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Cristi
Special Collaborator Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Online Points: 41654 |
Posted: October 06 2019 at 12:40 | |
the Op does not have a clue what neo-prog is (well, it seems he knows the PA definition but he is right and the rest of us are wrong). no vote , although i know and like most bands in the poll.
Edited by Cristi - October 06 2019 at 13:59 |
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YESESIS
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 26 2017 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 2215 |
Posted: October 06 2019 at 13:36 | |
You're good OP, I've also heard that, in the past, that sort of modern prog started with A Trick of the Tail. I have no issues whatsoever with this poll.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 33086 |
Posted: October 06 2019 at 13:41 | |
Neo-Prog has meant different things to different people over the years, not sure why one would get upset by it, unless one's a fan and someone else is defining it as sh*t. I don't see making this topic as being rude, but I find various responses to it quite impolite.
As I said, Allmusic calls various acts that others claim are not Neo-Prog as Neo-Prog (I don't have to agree to recognise it). PA has a Solstice in Neo-Prog while Verslibre does not consider Solstice Neo-Prog. I'm against absolutism, and monolithic definitions that lack nuance. Too often, for me, people claim something can only mean one thing, and if you use it a little differently, then people claim you're absolutely wrong/ ignorant stupid, that I tend to find offensive. It doesn't open up a discussion, it tends to shut it down. It's not open-minded; it's close-minded. I wish people would define what they mean instead of blaming others for using terms differently or even incorrectly. Edited by Logan - October 06 2019 at 13:43 |
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Just a music fan passing through trying to fill some void. Various music I am into now: a youtube playlist
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Cristi
Special Collaborator Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Online Points: 41654 |
Posted: October 06 2019 at 14:12 | |
^ is the close-minded remark refer to me? Was I the rude one? How does this poll and the OP using his own definition of "neo-prog" make any sense? He's read the PA definition of the genre but chooses to ignore it. Is re-inventing the wheel here necessary? The PA definition makes a lot of sense, explains the neo-prog sound clearly and so on. But all of a sudden it does not matter. |
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Psychedelic Paul
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Offline Points: 35375 |
Posted: October 06 2019 at 14:34 | |
Thanks Yesesis. I've had similar support from Logan too on my definition of Neo-Prog, which I'd generally define as any modern-day Progressive Rock bands who've emerged from the early 1980's onwards, as opposed to classic Progressive Rock from the 1970's era. I'd rather be criticised for including too many bands in my poll instead of excluding a debateable Neo-Prog artist that someone may have potentially voted for. By the way, I don't know if it's the done thing to vote in one's own poll, but if I WAS going to cast a vote, then my vote would go to Porcupine Tree.
Edited by Psychedelic Paul - October 06 2019 at 14:42 |
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YESESIS
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 26 2017 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 2215 |
Posted: October 06 2019 at 14:48 | |
No problem bud. And yeah go ahead and vote, people usually do vote in their own polls.
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Grumpyprogfan
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 09 2019 Location: Kansas City Status: Offline Points: 10137 |
Posted: October 06 2019 at 15:06 | |
From those listed, neo-prog or not, I choose Echolyn.
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AFlowerKingCrimson
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 16526 |
Posted: October 06 2019 at 15:09 | |
Well, that's not the standard definition of neo. You can search online and see for yourself. I'm not trying to rub your nose in it but you are in the minority in your opinion of what you think neo prog is. Nothing wrong with being an outlier though. Maybe everyone else(including myself)will change our opinions to conform to yours. You never know. ;) Also, I didn't say you were new necessarily just that maybe you only recently discovered the prog underground or maybe only recently came across the term "neo prog." The term has been around a while and most on here see it in reference to a certain rather specific musical scene/movement that happened in the eighties which was predominately an English one.
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - October 06 2019 at 15:10 |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 33086 |
Posted: October 06 2019 at 15:10 | |
By using it differently does not necessarily mean that he's ignored it, anymore than I would hope that you writing "well, it seems he knows the PA definition but he is right and the rest of us are wrong" ignored my earlier post where I demonstrated a site that does classify various bands here as Neo-Prog that various people here insist are not Neo-Prog, rightly or wrongly. And as said, one that it is claimed by one here as not Neo-Prog is labelled Neo-Prog at this very site and various other sites. I said that I see various remarks as impolite. I don't see this "the Op does not have a clue what neo-prog is (well, it seems he knows the PA definition but he is right and the rest of us are wrong)" as polite. Yes, I see it as rude. A more polite way to put it would be to speak directly to Paul instead of about him, use a name instead of just referring to someone as Op, and be informative rather than complaining. It comes across to me as condescending, presumptuous, and rather aggressive in tone. If others find it more neutral (rather than neither polite nor impolite, and some see it as more polite than I do, well okay, that's their perspective. Like I said, I see no insult intended with making this topic, but find such comments insulting, and totally off-putting. To limit oneself to the PA definition, as well as any who would discount bands that others sites might label as Neo-Prog, which by the way is not the first one used at this site, does indicate a rather narrow-minded outlook to me. Terminology and parameters are often in flux. This doesn't mean that the researches who put together the PA definition using other sources did not do a good job, but that does not automatically discount how others have used the term (rightly or wrongly or questionably). When I started using this site, Neo-Prog meant to me something more like how Psychedelic Paul uses it, which I how I had heard others use it. I was not an expert on it, and in fact, this kind of music is not my thing. I used it as more of temporal description that referred to post classic bands commonly influenced by symphonic prog that were on the melodic rock/ AOR spectrum, and it had an arena rock relation. As I have been a team member and long-time member of this site, I tend to use it in a narrower definition now which does align with how this site uses it (my language has been informed by this site as long time collab and site member, but that does not mean that I see no validity in using it rather differently -- that said, I am not Neo-Prog historian). As said, I'm a non-absolutist, and seeing this site as the authority I would see as problematic (I'm also rather anti-authoritarian, but that's another matter). It's not about re-inventing the wheel to me, language is being reinvented all the time, terms come and go, terms adapt, neologisms abound, and the goalposts are ever shifting. One can argue that PA has played a part in redefining terms, and hasn't always been traditionalist in scope or definition. What bothers me is that people complain so much about such things, and instead of saying, "I would define such-and-such differently, and here's how" or "I disagree and here's why", they make simple claims such as "You're wrong". That is not conducive to good discussion, I don't think. Edited by Logan - October 06 2019 at 15:14 |
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Just a music fan passing through trying to fill some void. Various music I am into now: a youtube playlist
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I prophesy disaster
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 31 2017 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 4606 |
Posted: October 06 2019 at 15:11 | |
The problem with this view is that it only makes sense if there are only two subgenres of Prog: Classic Prog and Neo-Prog. But with the subgenres we have in PA, it makes more sense to categorise new prog according to the type of music. And note that Neo-Prog is a type of music and not just a time period. |
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No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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AFlowerKingCrimson
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 16526 |
Posted: October 06 2019 at 15:18 | |
This.
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kenethlevine
Special Collaborator Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 8869 |
Posted: October 06 2019 at 18:06 | |
Collage, Satellite, Clepsydra or Believe.
That is all
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omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2011 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 5995 |
Posted: October 06 2019 at 19:52 | |
Porcupine Tree by a smidgen over IQ. Mars Volta are Neo?
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Dellinger
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: June 18 2009 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 12610 |
Posted: October 06 2019 at 20:35 | |
Steven Wilson (Porcupine Tree) may be more comfortable being considered prog now, but I believe he would be rather offended of being labeled as Neo-Prog.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 33086 |
Posted: October 06 2019 at 22:02 | |
He has posted here as many know and might have been more offended by my calling Porcupine Tree, Pork Your Pine Tree, which was very knotty [sic], as in knotty pine, of me.
I wonder how he felt about this article where he was interviewed by Nick Deriso, where the interviewer started off his article with "When neo-progger Steven Wilson says he loves the texture and scope of music from the 1970s, he doesn’t just mean classic recordings by the likes of King Crimson, Pink Floyd and Jethro Tull. He means all of it — ABBA, jazz, the Bee Gees, all of it." Of course by neo-progger, the interviewer may not have been referring to a style of Prog, but simply calling Wilson a musician creating new prog (by the way, New Prog or Nu Prog is also considered by some to be a subgenre of Prog).
Edited by Logan - October 06 2019 at 22:10 |
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Just a music fan passing through trying to fill some void. Various music I am into now: a youtube playlist
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Cristi
Special Collaborator Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Online Points: 41654 |
Posted: October 06 2019 at 23:49 | |
I am not trying to define anything differently, in fact the definitions we got here on PA are fine, I got no complaint. And if there is a genre that does not need to be redefined, it's neo-prog. As it is defined on this site, I don't think anyone can improve on that. What bothered me was not that Paul uses his own genre definitions, it's that he ignores ours (for no particular reason). Does his definition make better sense? No, if you ask me. Since the early 80s, progressive music has expanded, evolved, became more diverse to be simply labeled as "neo-prog"? Then how can anyone explain the sound of GYBE, Pain of Salvation, Sigur Ros, Gojira and many others. Neo-prog? Is it all neoprog?! I've seen other names for genres as well, new prog included. I've seen alternative prog somewhere; that does not mean we have to change anything, for now. A change needs to be an improvement on what was before, otherwise what's the point?
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richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 26359 |
Posted: October 07 2019 at 00:40 | |
I'm a big fan if IQ and so would nearly always vote for them as I did here. Yes as is being discussed there are clearly a lot of bands that are not neo prog. The eighties bands that defined neo -prog are IQ Marillion Twelth Night Pallas Pendragon there weren't that many latterly I would say the likes of Comedy Of Errors and Magenta have kept the movement bubbling along nicely. In general I don't see it as particularly adventurous or innovative and I don't care actually. It's less about technicality (in fact it shies away from that) and more about lyrics , songs and creating an atmosphere. I don't see it as even being a variant of symphonic prog particularly as often the bands estu complexity for a relatively straightforward approach. The apocalypse section of Suppers Ready often features in the longer tracks but a simplified version . I remember Grendel being referred to amusingly as 'Apocalypse in Four Four' by some smart arsed critic! Edited by richardh - October 07 2019 at 00:40 |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 33086 |
Posted: October 07 2019 at 00:52 | |
^^ How do you know he has no particular reason, did he say so, or is that an assumption? I'll have to read back on his posts. Some are less likely to change their preconceived notions than others when faced with different interpretations. Just because someone comes to the site that doesn't mean they need to conform in that way (well if suggesting bands they should know how we use categories and suggest bands to the best category according to PA).
I'm not saying that you are trying to define anything differently or advocating definitional change, and I took it that you like our current PA Neo-Prog write-up (it's at least our third Neo-Prog write-up since I've been visiting this site, and I think each one has been an improvement on the last). I think its good myself; it has nuance. As it says in the bottom two paragraphs:
Categorisation can be difficult, there is overlap with various categories, and it covers a multitude of expression. Yeah alternative prog is another term for New or NU Prog, and that does not mean that we need to change anything, and am not saying we should. Change writ large is inevitable, it can be good or bad, or sometimes a bit of both, some benefit, others don't. The universe is facing heat death, c'est la vie, at least I'll be long dead by then. Paul at least defined how he was using it, and I don't see that as snubbing how this site officially uses it or classifies artists. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with that, but I don't get why one would be condescending in response on this topic. Leave such attitudes to the politics threads if one must. I've seen others who use it much the same. I'm reminded of how I've made category polls that focused on albums, and people have complained because I've stepped out of the PA box. That is not quite the same issue, as PA has the limitation of not including multi-genres for artists, and not tagging individual albums, but people have said, that has nothing to do with the category I was highlighting, well I hear things differently and draw different associations. I think it arrogant to think that PA holds some ultimate truth when it comes to such things, and to think it strange that one would be taken aback by someone using the terms differently. As long as I know what people mean in conversation (feel rather differently when it comes to formal writing), and they know what I mean, so we're not talking at cross-purposes, feel free to call a dog a cat and a cat a dog. I don't see the point of it, but that's beside the point. All cats have four legs, Dogs have four legs, Therefore dogs are cats. (for a silly, faulty syllogism). Nomenclature is the bane of the archivist. Whether classified as Neo-Prog or not, as a grouping, I think that at least most of these musical acts make quite a bit of stylistic sense together and would tend to appeal to the same listeners, just as none of them have much appealed to me. If it weren't for the Neo-Prog labeling, I don't think there'd be much complaining about this not very stylistically disparate list of artists. I'd say, better to just say why one doesn't consider these all to be Neo-Prog, choose your favourite, then move on. One can do it politely with no condescension or acrimony. I use the word liberal differently than Paul, and probably socialist an communist too, but it's enough for me in conversation that I understand how he uses the term and he understands how I am using the term so we aren't talking at cross-purposes. Edited by Logan - October 07 2019 at 00:56 |
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Just a music fan passing through trying to fill some void. Various music I am into now: a youtube playlist
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Man With Hat
Collaborator Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team Joined: March 12 2005 Location: Neurotica Status: Offline Points: 166178 |
Posted: October 07 2019 at 01:15 | |
Weird poll. IQ of the neos, Echolyn overall.
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
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Cristi
Special Collaborator Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Online Points: 41654 |
Posted: October 07 2019 at 01:21 | |
oh man, you're good with words, you could convince me an apple is an orange or something. I'm not good with words, I lack the patience to write long argumentative posts. Next time I will follow my instinct and ignore a thread and poll like this one. But this is what happens when a poll makes no sense (to me) and just looking at the bands in it I got a headache... well, kinda...
Edited by Cristi - October 07 2019 at 01:35 |
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