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Reasons for continously highest rated Prog albums?
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suitkees View Drop Down
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Points: 8844 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2022 at 08:41
Originally posted by twosteves twosteves wrote:

for me---#1 and #2 are exactly right ---the rest like everyone--I can switch around.Smile

Hehe, my top two would already be different, although #1 would not be that far from the spot. #2 however would probably not even be in my top 20...

I took a look at the top 50 here on PA... It is interesting to see that 7 albums are not from the 70s:
- 2 are from before: Zappa (Hot Rats, 1969) and Miles Davis (Kind of Blue, 1959 - when prog didn't exist);
- 2 are from 90s Dream Theater (Images and Words, 1992, and Metropolis Part II, 1999) - maybe illustrative of the prog metal "take-over" of prog (as I saw it at that time);
- 2 are from retro-prog bands, celebrating that 70s prog sound (Änglagård and Wobbler);
- 1 is from Rush (Moving Pictures, 1981).

And to add to that, only 3 are from 1977 or 1978 (none from 1979): Pink Floyd's Animals and Rush's Hemispheres and A Farewell to Kings...
So, 40 albums from the top 50 are made between 1970 and 1976. The algorithm used probably does not favour new albums to enter the top lists in a same - easy - way as it appears to do on RYM. It is all about algorithms and the weighting system used here on PA, but I don't think it is that bad considering we are here on a prog site and not a general music site and it reflects indeed the esteem we collectively seem to have for those progasaurs. BrufordFreak and Grumpy are quite right, IMO (the bias towards the pioneers and it is difficult to compete against +3k or even +2k number of ratings).

Black Midi's album Hellfire could/should be on #70 now in PA's top 100 with its average rating of 4.30 now, but it isn't because it doesn't have the sufficient number of ratings yet to be taken into account. It will probably be a matter of time...
It would be a nice feature, next to the all-time top 100, to have a top 100 over the last 12 months (and sliding with time). That would probably give a completely different picture and will take into account new/recent trends that are complete invisible in the all-time top 100. (the filter system does already give some options that could go into that direction, though)



Edited by suitkees - September 18 2022 at 09:04

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Lewian View Drop Down
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A top album must be an album on which many prog fans agree, so it must be well known enough, but also it needs to strike a balance between being innovative, complex, challenging (the albums are rated by prog fans so commercially appealing alone won't do), but also nicely listenable enough and optimally with some memorable melodies. Obviously you find some prog fans who don't like all of the top albums (hell, there are at least 8 VDGG albums I prefer to Godbluff, same with Pink Floyd and WYWH), but they ended up on top because they didn't piss off many. For sure all of these have some special individual qualities that distinguish them from each other and from what else is out there, I'm not saying being nice to many people is enough, but still...

By the way, people tend to agree more on the classics. Sure, top quality music is to be found between 1980 and today, but there are far more branches than roots. Many of us were brought to prog by the top 6 and other dinosaurs; when it comes to later prog, people's tastes spread out more, so albums have a harder time to reach the top, which I think is quite right even without thinking that the quality of the old masters was never reached. It is just far more controversial by whom. Also the longer an album is around, the more it can stand the test of time (or not).



Edited by Lewian - September 18 2022 at 08:46
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David_D View Drop Down
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Thank you very much for your certainly informative post, Lewian, which gives indeed several very good reasons for consideration. Thumbs Up
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If you're interested in statistics, Suitkees, here are some concerning my list(s) made in 2019

For the total 160 list:

UK 57 bands, US 32, D 15, I 14, S 7, CAN and F 6, N 5, PL 4, NL 3, J, ARG 

and B 2 each and BRA, ROM, GRE, ESP, ISR, Chile and FIN 1 each 

8 albums from the 60’s, 94 from the 70’s, 12 from the 80’s, 14 from the 90’s,

30 from the 0’s and 6 from the 10’s



Edited by David_D - September 19 2022 at 04:28
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suitkees View Drop Down
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^ Well, actually, I'm not that much interested in statistics. I'm more interested in understanding what their results represent. Often they don't represent that much, other than to support/illustrate a postulate of someone to confirm his/her ideas. I'm very much on Winston Churchill's stance that there are "lies, damn lies and statistics". Then again, this is more about how we use them then about what they are. Statistics can be very useful, but they also can be very tricky - it all depends on how they are used. And it is this latter part that interests me more than the statistics themselves.

So, the numbers you give above don't say a damn thing to me unless you interpret them somehow. What do they tell you?


Edited by suitkees - September 18 2022 at 10:21

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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

can you please stop mentioning constantly your other threads all over the place. I'm not even the only person to tell you that... 

I didn't read this post of yours before now.




Edited by David_D - September 18 2022 at 10:57
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

So, the numbers you give above don't say a damn thing to me unless you interpret them somehow. What do they tell you?

Well, regarding the fact that about 60% of all the albums are from the 70's, I could for instance say that the list gives quite good evidence for the point of view that 70's are today considered to be The Golden Age of Prog. Tongue
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David_D View Drop Down
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Points: 13530 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2022 at 14:44
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

So, the numbers you give above don't say a damn thing to me unless you interpret them somehow. What do they tell you?

Well, regarding the fact that about 60% of all the albums are from the 70's, I could for instance say that the list gives quite good evidence for the point of view that 70's are today considered to be The Golden Age of Prog. Tongue
It could also be seen as good evidence for Lewian's point of view that "...people tend to agree more on the classics".

On the other hand, such interpretations would require knowledge about which factors determine the way people are rating.


Edited by David_D - September 18 2022 at 17:24
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Points: 6030 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mathman0806 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2022 at 18:55
I have a few thoughts on this.

1. PA ranks by the QWR rating not the straight average rating that is shown. All of the top 100 have QWR rating greater than 4.21. The new Black Midi has 4.30 rating but 4.09 QWR. This where the number of ratings is a factor.

2. So I don't quite understand QWR, but that's where the actual number of ratings matter, because the ratings for Black Midi may be skewed by the fact all 4 reviews are 5 stars. This % of 5 star ratings for Black Midi is 35% while the number 70 all time, Hatfield and the North has a % of 43%. This is a significant difference and I am not sure if that is what accounts for the difference. But, also to keep in mind is that if you run the algorithm for the past 23 years, not accounting for the classic era, the Black Midi album doesn't crack the top 100 there either, coming in at 117, ahead of Marbles by Marillion with over 1100 ratings. Does anyone know the formula for calculating QWR?

3. Having a high % of 5 star is an indicator to watch for. CTTTE is at 80%!

4. Now in terms of the importance of being from the classic era. I think it does matter because this is much more biased group of people participating than RYM. Think about who would search for and then go to a Progressive Rock website. In particular if the majority is from the first 10 years of PA, I would guess fans of classic progressive rock. And now, traffic is much lower in the past, would it attract fans interested in newer artists such as Black Midi such that they get over 50% 5 star ratings? I am thinking no, as most traffic would still skew towards fans of more traditional prog. The exception would be prog metal which draws its own strong segment with it's own inherent biases.



Edited by mathman0806 - September 18 2022 at 20:23
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


One idea is just to remove the algorithm altogether and just allow the situation to be constantly fluid. We don't really need to see that the top PA album is always Close To The Edge do we. It may more fun just to see it go up and down like in choppy waters while the latest releases take centre stage. 

I think that the overall top PA ranking is certainly of interest to many, however it could be fun and promote some other artists if on the home page on the right instead of "top prog albums" there'd be some more or less randomly filtered ranking like "top psychedelic/space albums from the 2000s", changed on a daily basis. (Of course this will never happen. Wink Still I'd like it.)


Edited by Lewian - September 19 2022 at 02:53
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


Some Prog albums become some of the highest rated and can be that for really many years, even the genre/meta-genre 
meanwhile goes through many changes and evolvements. I'm curious and find it interesting to think about the reasons for it, 
...

Hi,

Other than Jethro Tull, I'm not sure that in 1972, any of the "big folks" were that appreciated as they are now. They all had their "niche" of fans, but the numbers of sales did not show anything worthy of attention, however, it became very clear (QUICKLY) when their concert numbers were way up and they were selling out places in Nowhereville USA.

Given 50 years since then, when compared to a lot of things, it seems that most folks (LAZILY I might add) will vote for them, because they do not have the stomach to listen to a lot more ... because it is not top five material!

All in all, the tough part is that TODAY, it is ruled by "numbers" that do not exist, and while the musicianship involved is stellar, the fan appreciation is lacking, and was lacking for many years ... look at it .... PF did not have a good time until 1974 and it wasn't until several months after the album was released and news got around that the show itself was too damn good and strong for anyone not to appreciate it ... and the rest was history from there! By comparison, I don't think that any of the other top bands had any kind of show worth of consideration, even including the incredible amount of Roger Dean art in many YES shows that most fans did not give a sh*t about, anyway! ELP's thing, ended up becoming the one thing that Keith disliked in his later days ... the "showmanship" took away from his music, and to this day, almost no one here takes the road of respect for the incredible music he wrote, especially when heard on acoustic piano by Rachel Flowers ... we still only think of it all as some sort of rock fan show ... and this hurts, for people that take their music seriously, but had to do a little showing off to get some attention from a rock press that still was stupid and uneducated ... with the talent to write things like Tangerine Dream was washing machine music ... which tells you how much "sound" they know in the first place, never mind ... MUSIC!

Even today, some of the reasons are bizarre to say the least and compared to an "imaginary" music design that is really bad and needs to be killed. But the "fans" love it, and continue with the least valuable description of music, EVER made!
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Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:

...So I don't quite understand QWR...Does anyone know the formula for calculating QWR?


For more than you might want to know about QWR, see this old post of mine..,
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=122268&PID=5820596#5820596
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Most ratings are based on personal preferences, and the albums that are liked by most people, will certainly be at the top. 
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I think the Beatles albums should be #1 thru #100......but that's just me LOL Clap
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I think the Beatles albums should be #1 thru #100......but that's just me LOL Clap

Catcher10, can you please stop mentioning the Beatles in all your posts, it's really getting long in the tooth ! 
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I think the Beatles albums should be #1 thru #100......but that's just me LOL Clap

Catcher10, can you please stop mentioning the Beatles in all your posts, it's really getting long in the tooth ! 

Ok I'll try and stop..........NOT! LOLClapClap
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In general there are just not enough ratings, even 3000 is a drop in the ocean and only about a dozen albums have more than about 3000 of the top of my head and then its mostly Pink Floyd! 
One idea is just to remove the algorithm altogether and just allow the situation to be constantly fluid. We don't really need to see that the top PA album is always Close To The Edge do we. It may more fun just to see it go up and down like in choppy waters while the latest releases take centre stage. 

Whatever you may think about ratings, I'm convinced that they mean a lot to many people, and I can imagine that RYM is coming ahead PA, even as a "Prog site", due to all the many ratings. Ermm
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

can you please stop mentioning constantly your other threads all over the place. I'm not even the only person to tell you that... 

Nothing to do with Catcher's  posts. 

Please tell me, what do you find to be the problem?
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I think the Beatles albums should be #1 thru #100......but that's just me LOL Clap

Catcher10, can you please stop mentioning the Beatles in all your posts, it's really getting long in the tooth ! 

LOL
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

can you please stop mentioning constantly your other threads all over the place. I'm not even the only person to tell you that... 

Nothing to do with Catcher's  posts. 

Please tell me, what do you find to be the problem?


other than nobody does it, you being told several times not to do it, that it's inappropriate, no problem...
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