What makes Progressive Metal progressive?

CCVP wrote: What the? As far as i know and as far as anyone that i know who is old enough to have lived that period Rush was NOT a progressive rock band neither a progressive metal one (what the hell?), just a terrific HARD ROCK band. It just happens that people who lived when history is in the making don't know the exact outcome of things and, about Rush, that was what happened. some years later (i think on the early 90's, already in internet chat things) Rush's classification changed widely to progressive rock wile it was still a hard rock band, which was quite reasonable since they for sure had some of the progressive rock elements. Nowadays its classification is changing again to progressive metal. People, we HAVE to remember that, if we are going to change Rush's classification we'd better change also Deep Purple's and Led Zeppelin's to metal and also keep in mind that the measuring stick for old school metal is Black Sabbath. Come on, think about it: if Rush indeed was a progressive metal band, they would not had only invented progressive metal, but also they would be one of the inventors of metal itself. Atavachron wrote: It reminds me a little of the dilemma Bruce Lee's followers had after he died.  The form of martial art he developed and taught, Jeet Kune Do, was designed to be always evolving, fluid, and able to adapt to any opponent or situation.. essentially a progressive fighting style, a 'way of no way' as he put it.  But over the years as his approach was taught to others, it became a rigid system with rules and techniques never meant to be adhered to.  Sorry, had to slip in the martial arts analogy i wish i could have thought that, since it falls right into what i just said: some classifications are just forced, like putting Rush in the prog metal genre. Just let it be where it belongs: the hard rock session (and occasionally on the prog rock ).

Re: Rush - I suppose it must be a geographical thing.

Edited by Certif1ed - June 19 2008 at 07:55

What the?

As far as i know and as far as anyone that i know who is old enough to have lived that period Rush was NOT a progressive rock band neither a progressive metal one (what the hell?), just a terrific HARD ROCK band. It just happens that people who lived when history is in the making don't know the exact outcome of things and, about Rush, that was what happened. some years later (i think on the early 90's, already in internet chat things) Rush's classification changed widely to progressive rock wile it was still a hard rock band, which was quite reasonable since they for sure had some of the progressive rock elements.

Nowadays its classification is changing again to progressive metal. People, we HAVE to remember that, if we are going to change Rush's classification we'd better change also Deep Purple's and Led Zeppelin's to metal and also keep in mind that the measuring stick for old school metal is Black Sabbath. Come on, think about it: if Rush indeed was a progressive metal band, they would not had only invented progressive metal, but also they would be one of the inventors of metal itself.

Atavachron wrote: It reminds me a little of the dilemma Bruce Lee's followers had after he died.  The form of martial art he developed and taught, Jeet Kune Do, was designed to be always evolving, fluid, and able to adapt to any opponent or situation.. essentially a progressive fighting style, a 'way of no way' as he put it.  But over the years as his approach was taught to others, it became a rigid system with rules and techniques never meant to be adhered to.  Sorry, had to slip in the martial arts analogy

i wish i could have thought that, since it falls right into what i just said: some classifications are just forced, like putting Rush in the prog metal genre. Just let it be where it belongs: the hard rock session (and occasionally on the prog rock ).

micky wrote: Atavachron wrote: It reminds me a little of the dilemma Bruce Lee's followers had after he died.  The form of martial art he developed and taught, Jeet Kune Do, was designed to be always evolving, fluid, and able to adapt to any opponent or situation.. essentially a progressive fighting style, a 'way of no way' as he put it.  But over the years as his approach was taught to others, it became a rigid system with rules and techniques never meant to be adhered to.  Sorry, had to slip in the martial arts analogy   hhahha...  f**king A.... post of the week right there.... anyone who can work a Bruce Lee analogy into a Prog Metal thread.... is truly God on Earth for the week

Agreed

debrewguy wrote: A few comments here First, that quote from Emmerson - Does that mean we eliminate Krautrock from PA ? Oh, wait, that music is not repetitive, it is "droning". Or as they say in some quarters - prog music means not having to make up your mind as to what song you're playing (now you hear it, now you don't!)   I believe you're making a generalization about Krautrock that denies it's essence, Krautrock started as German Psyche, and for that reason exploring foreign influences rarely used in Rock before.   Yes, they have repetitive rhythm, but the exploration of the posibilities is in other point, they were the first to really use the heavy atmospheres and the spacey sounds, so they explored the posibilities as Emerson said, not my cup of tea, but they really deserve the name of Prog. Second, prog metal is doomed because it is associated with metal. Metal is associated with noise. Noise is associated with RIO/Avant-Garde and Krautrock, therefore Prog Metal is not prog.   That's called reduction to absurd, and would only work if the screams and noise were an exclusive characteristic of a non Prog genre, but it's not, you have noise in early Psyche if not listen Careful with that Axe Eugene also with early Hard Prog, you can listen Uriah Heep or Deep Purple or even the distorted noises that King Crimson used and Uriah Heep, or the noises inclueded in early space Pink Flyd albums .   Noise can be found anywhere. Third - Prog Metal can't be prog 'cause there are loud guitars and screaming singers.   Loud guitars: Marillion, Heep, Deep Purple, Kansas, Genesis (Listen Giant Hogweed), Rush,   Screams: Have you ever listened the Musical Box Final section, or Giant Hogweed or Supper's Ready? Of course if you don't want to mention David Byron, David Surkamp, Geddy Lee, etc and even the ballad oriented Greg Lake singing 21st Century Schizoid Man with heavy distorted guitars.   There are screams everywhere.   Fourth - Keyboards are necessary for a band to be considered prog ?   I don't believe so, instruments don't make the music, musicians make the music. Fifth - No , really , keyboards are necessary for a band to be prog ?   Honestly, I believe not. Sixth - Can someone stop that ringing ?///}   Ask a doctor, may be the same virus that attacked Phil Collins and caused him tinittus.   Iván

Atavachron wrote: It reminds me a little of the dilemma Bruce Lee's followers had after he died.  The form of martial art he developed and taught, Jeet Kune Do, was designed to be always evolving, fluid, and able to adapt to any opponent or situation.. essentially a progressive fighting style, a 'way of no way' as he put it.  But over the years as his approach was taught to others, it became a rigid system with rules and techniques never meant to be adhered to.  Sorry, had to slip in the martial arts analogy

That's actually a very nice analogy. There are essentially two aspects colliding: The style and the approach. Followers can either copy the original style, or develop new styles using the approach of the original artists. The former is more easily recognisable as being similar to the original, especially by people without a musical background. The latter is more interesting and rewarding to check out, but also much harder to recognize or identify since it requires in-depth knowledge. It's surely quite difficult for someone who has never played an instrument or studied music theory to indentify concepts like Counter-Point or modal scales, cadenzas etc. in a piece of music, let alone the intricate form/structure required by Certif1ed's definition. In effect, his definition is quite radical, and something with which I sympathize, but it would also alienate many "progheads" which are more used to comparing styles and simple elements. In a nutshell by his definition Dream Theater would be replaced with Metallica ...


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - June 19 2008 at 02:53

It reminds me a little of the dilemma Bruce Lee's followers had after he died.  The form of martial art he developed and taught, Jeet Kune Do, was designed to be always evolving, fluid, and able to adapt to any opponent or situation.. essentially a progressive fighting style, a 'way of no way' as he put it.  But over the years as his approach was taught to others, it became a rigid system with rules and techniques never meant to be adhered to.  Sorry, had to slip in the martial arts analogy

 

Certif1ed wrote: I must admit I found it hard to swallow, except in the absolutely literal sense of the word "Progressive" - ie, something different enough to sound new and exciting. Dream Theater simply added a keyboard and a sheen of technical mastery to a style of music that had been there for at least a decade - they did not re-invent the music in the same dramatic way that Rush or Diamond Head did. Or Iron Maiden or Metallica, come to that.

Certif1ed wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: Certif1ed wrote:   Along with Queensryche, Iron Maiden, Rush - who is it to be? No - I meant that if you could name only *one* band which symbolises Prog Metal then it would definitely have to be Dream Theater. The only other band which I would consider are Fates Warning, but Dream Theater are the #1 Prog Metal band.   Yes, but those other bands are also Prog Metal, and they preceeded them historically, is what I meant.   You can't define a genre from a band that came to it, say, 15 years too late (if we assume that Rush were first with 2112).

Rush are not prog metal ... not even close.

In my book it all started to take form around 1988/1989, with the Dream Theater debut and Fates Warning - Perfect Symmetry. Of course you don't have to agree ... but IMO those albums are for Prog Metal what Genesis - Foxtrot and Yes - CttE are for Prog Rock!