Genre Classification Issues - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Andy Webb

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Posted: August 17 2011 at 08:03

All current suggestions have been forwarded to the CZ Smile

harmonium.ro View Drop Down

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Posted: August 17 2011 at 08:39

Reading band bios and genre definitions, checking out tags on RYM, AllMusic, Last.fm etc. would help solve some of these questions for you guys.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: August 17 2011 at 13:11

Anthony H. wrote:

Anyways, I'd like to suggest that Unifaun be moved from Symphonic Prog into Neo-Prog. The music focuses primarily on lush synths and vocals. This is Genesis-prog, but in a Marillion kind of way.

Hi Anthony.

I personally added this bad (with a bio provided by the band) despite I .consider their album the cheapest, unimaginative and most mediocre attempt of cloning Genesis.

I even had a terrible word exchange with Nad Sylvan (Member of the band in http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28344&KW=UNIFAUN&PN=110 ) due to my opinions made in the the review, but I believe any band attempting so carefully to re-create Genesis, basing the sound in the use of keyboards and vocals in the style of Banks and Gabriel/Collins, is a Symphonic band.

That was my opinion when added them and it's still, it's not a matter of quality, I hate the album, but I believe they have to stay where they are

Thanks for your interest

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 17 2011 at 14:24

Triceratopsoil View Drop Down

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Posted: August 17 2011 at 14:06

Then wtf is Marillion?

toroddfuglesteg View Drop Down

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Posted: August 17 2011 at 14:23

Triceratopsoil wrote:

Then wtf is Marillion?

When you spot a minefield, knot down it's presence on a map but never ever walk straight into it. LOL

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: August 17 2011 at 14:34

Triceratopsoil wrote:

Then wtf is Marillion?

Marillion wasa a good band (Until Fish left) that is INFLUENCED by Genesis, but in no way a clone.

- Fish with his strong Scottish accent, in no way imitates Gabriel, he uses his natural range.

- Mark Kelly in no way plays like Banks, his sound is clearly more oriented towards bands like Europe or Jan Hammer (Miami Vice era), but with a slight Bankian edge.

- Steve Rothery doesn't has the slightest similarity with Steve Hackett, his style is much more heavy and less dark

- Pete Trewavas has very little in common with Rutherford.

So Marillion is an original band with influences, nothing less.

Iván

Triceratopsoil View Drop Down

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Posted: August 17 2011 at 14:53

Spoken like a fanboy in denial

Henry Plainview View Drop Down

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Posted: August 17 2011 at 14:58

That thread is great Ivan. I wish I could get into a flamewar with someone (somewhat) famous.

Triceratopsoil wrote:

Spoken like a fanboy in denial

nobody cares

Anthony H. wrote:

Could collabs possibly review this page? And perhaps a pin would be good?

nope

if you own a sodastream i hate you

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: August 17 2011 at 15:55

Triceratopsoil wrote:

Spoken like a fanboy in denial

Not a fanboy, as a fact not even a fan,

MARILLION Brave | review

MARILLION Happiness Is The Road

review

MARILLION Live from Loreley

review

MARILLION Misplaced Childhood

review

MARILLION Script For A Jester's Tear

review

MARILLION Seasons End | review

Apart from Script from a Jester's Tear and Misplaced Childhood, I hardly care for Marillion.

But I'm not deaf. Wink

Iván

CCVP

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Posted: August 17 2011 at 19:29

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Triceratopsoil wrote:

Spoken like a fanboy in denial

Not a fanboy, as a fact not even a fan,

MARILLION Brave | review

MARILLION Happiness Is The Road

review

MARILLION Live from Loreley

review

MARILLION Misplaced Childhood

review

MARILLION Script For A Jester's Tear

review

MARILLION Seasons End | review

Apart from Script from a Jester's Tear and Misplaced Childhood, I hardly care for Marillion.

But I'm not deaf. Wink

Iván

I'm not trying to put gasoline in the fire, but their debut sounds A LOT like Genesis meets Pink Floyd. Wink

After that they just leaned more towards Pink Floyd (Clutching at Straws looks A LOT like The Wall to me, from the concept to the music and lyrics, though not as dark and "deep").

Actually, most of those bands said to be "quality neo prog" are basically Genesis meets Pink Floyd, at least among in the English crops, I don't know any neo Polish band, which is a shame considering they have the biggest (or at least the most importnat) of such scene today to the point that it influences many Polish progressive metal bands.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: August 17 2011 at 21:46

CCVP wrote:

I'm not trying to put gasoline in the fire, but their debut sounds A LOT like Genesis meets Pink Floyd. Wink

I don't deny that their main influence is Genesis, but they are not cloning them, as a fact since they blend the style of two bands, they are creating a new sound

On the other hand a band like UNIFAUN, who's motto is to release "the songs Genesis never did", are IMO simple clones.

Iván

lazland

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Posted: August 18 2011 at 07:14

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

CCVP wrote:

I'm not trying to put gasoline in the fire, but their debut sounds A LOT like Genesis meets Pink Floyd. Wink

I don't deny that their main influence is Genesis, but they are not cloning them, as a fact since they blend the style of two bands, they are creating a new sound

On the other hand a band like UNIFAUN, who's motto is to release "the songs Genesis never did", are IMO simple clones.

Iván

I AM a huge Marillion fan, and as I've said here god knows how many times, they haven't sounded like Genesis since at least Fugazi, and even on that, the influence was getting weaker.

BTW Ivan, they've been even better since Fish left Big smile

Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org

CCVP

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Posted: August 18 2011 at 07:48

lazland wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

CCVP wrote:

I'm not trying to put gasoline in the fire, but their debut sounds A LOT like Genesis meets Pink Floyd. Wink

I don't deny that their main influence is Genesis, but they are not cloning them, as a fact since they blend the style of two bands, they are creating a new sound

On the other hand a band like UNIFAUN, who's motto is to release "the songs Genesis never did", are IMO simple clones.

Iván

I AM a huge Marillion fan, and as I've said here god knows how many times, they haven't sounded like Genesis since at least Fugazi, and even on that, the influence was getting weaker.

BTW Ivan, they've been even better since Fish left Big smile

Agree on the first point, disagree on the second (even though I'm not Iván Tongue

presdoug

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Posted: August 18 2011 at 10:41

come to think of it, Dzyan are in some ways more jazz rock/fusion than specifically krautrock

Icarium

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Posted: August 23 2011 at 02:01

interesting this might be of something that might help improve the site

also the guys who wrote it seems very knowledgeable about prog, so maybe contact him and let him join the squad. (or maybe he already are :O )

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: August 23 2011 at 11:52

aginor wrote:

interesting this might be of something that might help improve the site

also the guys who wrote it seems very knowledgeable about prog, so maybe contact him and let him join the squad. (or maybe he already are :O )

Hi Aginor, this is not new, as a fact when Prog Archive started, ART ROCK was the sub-genre (or category if you want) in where bands like Roxy Music, STYX, ASIA, etc falled.

GEPR supported this theory with their definition:

Art Rock

The very border of progressive music in which more commercial styles of music were created at a different angle. Not quite progressive but almost.

Bands

Be Bop Deluxe, early Eno, Roxy Music, etc.

http://www.gepr.net/gepr_styles.html

On those days M@x created Prog Related and more or less covered the parameters of what we had considered Art Rock, so we were ibna prolem

Later there was a big discussion here and Mike (If I'm not wrong) presented us the new definition of Art Rock, as a fact with Tony we discovered that the term Art Rock had evolved through time:

In the early 70's Art Rock was a synonymous of Progressive Rock
From the 80's to late 90's, Art Rock was used to describe more or less what Jerry Lucky said.
Since the 21st Century begun, Art Rock was used to define those bands that

Crossed more than one genre through their career as King Crimson
Were almost impossible to classify into the limits of one sub-genre like Gentle Giant
Bands that are one of a kind and don't fit in any sub-genre, as a fact GEPR had a this genres:

Oldfield Progressive

I don't know what else to call this type of music since it was so innovative. Mike Oldfield, an incredible musician and composer created a form of music that combined everything form hard rock to Celtic music and did it with such style and verve that it actually became popular. Usually written like Symphonic prog and was also quite bombastic yet more sensible.

Bands

Mike Oldfield, Jean-Pascal Boffo, Sung Woo Lee, etc.

http://www.gepr.net/gepr_styles.html

And this one

Zappa Music

If you listen to Frank Zappa, you know what I mean. Not typically quoted as being "progressive" but deserves to be included here maybe more than some of these others. Quite individual.

Bands

Mothers of Invention/Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, Floh De Cologne, etc.

http://www.gepr.net/gepr_styles.html

So it was obvious that this bands fall into Art Rock, instead of creating new absurd sub-genres for one band, so with this information Tony and I wrote a new definition that was on the site for a couple years:

Not a sub-genre “per se”, more a category; being that bands included in Art Rock may have very few things in common other than the fact that they are all 100% Progressive Rock.

The term Art Rock has evolved from being a synonym of Progressive Rock in the early 70's to being considered the borderline between Progressive Rock and mainstream in the 90's. However, the term changed again with the new century and these are the characteristics of the bands that will be included in this category:

100% Prog bands
Bands that are beyond the limits of the sub-genre parameters or
Bands that have evolved through their career so much that they crossed different sub-genres without any single sub-genre being preeminent over the rest or
Bands that have characteristics of two or more different sub-genres and can’t be reasonably classified in either or
Bands that simply are one of a kind and for that reason can’t be included as part of any sub-genre.

The main difference with Prog-Related is that in this second category the bands included are not career Prog bands or are simply non Prog bands that have influenced or been influenced by the genre.

Prog Archives accepts that it’s a very generic category but we believe it is necessary to avoid creating an endless number of sub-genres for each eclectic band that appears.

When Micky and Raff left the Symphonic Team, they took Art Rock, but the genre was HUGE, being that most teams (Including Symphonic), had sent the bands that no team accepted to Art Roick

So the Administrators decided to divide Art Rock into three new genres:

Eclectic
Crossover
Heavy Prog

This solved the issue of having almost 1,000 bands in one sigle category called Art Rock, and used the existing definition to create three genres.

Keep Proggin'

Iván

BTW: I believe Jerry has collaborated with us more than once.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 23 2011 at 12:21

Bosh66

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Posted: August 25 2011 at 13:46

"come to think of it, Dzyan are in some ways more jazz rock/fusion than specifically krautrock". Good point, presdoug. Dzyan certainly has jr/f at their core, but certainly indo-prog is a big part of their sound. The definition on this site of Krautrock as, "an anarchic, intense, acid, tellurian, nocturnal, spacey, dark and oniric "adventure" through rock music." doesn't particularly apply to this band anymore than a number of prog bands. In my humble uneducated opinion of course

Bosh66

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Posted: August 25 2011 at 13:55

Here's another band where the genre allocation throws me a little (and contrary to how this might look, I don't generally get that hung up on labels, but anyhooo...)

Samurai released their eponymous album back in 1971. A very nice little album that mixes psych rock and jazz, and to me has quite a strong Canterbury sound, including on the bonus tracks which include live songs written for an unrealised second album. A special collaborator reviewing the album describes it as, "solid, energetic proto- prog with heavily inflicted jazz and R'n'B undertones, moderately related to the Canterbury patterns and an extra psychedelic sensibility." I don't think to my ears that's too far from the mark. What I would argue is that this one album band is much closer to Canterbury than Art Rock (it's under Crossover). The band in the album notes describe themselves as progressive jazz-rock.

At the end of the day though, I'm just happy that the album is listed.

Edited by Bosh66 - August 25 2011 at 13:58

Bosh66

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Posted: August 25 2011 at 13:57

Hey, I'm now a Groupie! Hope the band members are lookers!