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Progressive Rock, a part of a certain culture? |
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David_D 
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Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 13542 |
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 Posted: January 29 2022 at 07:21 |
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thank you, Cristi
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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suitkees
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Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 8895 |
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 07:28 |
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^^ Yes David, as I explicitly referred to your OP I read that you think there is "no need" to think about the notion of subculture in itself. And when someone asks you to explicit what you're thinking about when talking about "some possible things" you refuse to go into that. Well, you've become a bit more explicit in your reaction to Cristi above. But when you think you can have a fruitful discussion about considering prog eventually as a subculture without feeling the need to define a bit better what you understand by subculture, all you can get is a rambling discussion without direction, which - in my opinion - is actually the case. I sense somehow your questioning, and I definitely don't want to say it is not a valid questioning. For example, Punk definitely has (had?) its subculture. Maybe nowadays metal, to a lesser extent (especially ideologically speaking, I guess). But prog is already so protean and multifaceted music wise, that automatically its audiences are as heterogeneous. Too heterogeneous to be able to speak about a "subculture" in relation to prog (it suffices to see some of the "general discussions" going on here on PA).But, this also depends on what you understand by "subculture". If this is taken by its somewhat conventional definitions (see Wiki), then I definitely don't see any kind of prog subculture in our present day world
Edited by suitkees - January 29 2022 at 07:30 |
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16577 |
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 07:52 |
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Hi, I'm an "elitist" simply because I fight for the artist, instead of its fame? You gotta get cereal ... serious! This is not about complex or not music, this is about a comment that really says very little about music, and for the record, almost all of the "progressive" music in the early days WAS NOT exactly a hit ... but some things like ELP managed to get by mainly because of Keith, I imagine. Everyone has the ability and right to like some pop stuff ... gosh knows I do (secretly) ... but if you look at history of the "PROGRESSIVE MUSIC" (which I'm not sure you are accepting based on your comments about me being an elitist ... something I am not! I have opinions just like you, but they don't make me red, green, blue or cyan! They are opinions that we can easily discuss over a cup of tea unless you are one of those trumpistas out there that think they are right and the world is wrong. Now, that's elitist! And, BTW, I have been a proponent of "progressive" for 55 years, and it has nothing to do with pop music, or its fame. I have discussed the history as I have seen it ... not through your demented ideas and mind thinking that someone is an elitist just because you don't agree!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16577 |
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 07:58 |
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Hi, RIGHT ... negative and I have been with the music and one of its proponents for 55 years. You just don't like when people say things that HURT your arguments, that in my book are elementary and not well studied. That is one opinion, and not a fact, btw! I have helped and been a part of more "progressive" music than you have ever thought it was possible, and was one of the folks next to Guy Guden and Space Pirate Radio in 1974 when it was his and mine record collection that fed the show! And the show is still on, more progressive than the top of the pops (and very poor) shows on the Internet professing to be progressive. SPECIALLY WHEN IN THE EARLY DAYS, IT WAS ABOUT BEING AGAINST THE AM RADIO top of the heap bullcrap. The day you understand "negative", let me know!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16577 |
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 08:03 |
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Hi, I always had the feeling that someone did indeed, have "none" and they used it against the folks that tend to look at music with grandiose ideas and stories and thoughts, and then say that the lyrics mean this and show that. In this manner, I really appreciate Frank Zappa, even more ... he pretty much told everyone, take a dump and stop thinking that I am the gosh of lyrics and music! But, the problem is that we "fans" tend to worship at the altar of something INVISIBLE, that many times, does not mean half of what it pertains to ... specially when it's just words and crap with some nice smelling salts and perfumes to get your attention!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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David_D
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Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 13542 |
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 09:00 |
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I didn't imagine, this thread should become such a drama club. Take it easy, guys.
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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suitkees
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Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 8895 |
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 09:38 |
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A drama club? I'd rather say that it is a very ill defined topic where you yourself refuse to give any coherent input. But don't worry, I won't ever react anymore to one of your topics - I prefer talking to a wall. I wish you fun with your self-dialogues.
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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David_D
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Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 13542 |
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 09:44 |
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Well, we just look very differently at it.
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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suitkees
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 09:49 |
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^ I wouldn't know, because up till now you have not even exposed your "look" at "it"...
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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Jacob Schoolcraft
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 10:38 |
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Thanks Moshkito!!!
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Jacob Schoolcraft
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 11:18 |
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When I compose music ..I am influenced by nature. I'm usually holding a guitar in a field or by the ocean. I don't profess to be a great composer and I don't compare myself to great people...but I'm okay sometimes. I don't write anything down. I create a melody or chord progression from what I feel from nature or a life experience...but during the process I'm not thinking about anything at all. I'm definitely not thinking about what I'm going to play before I play it.
Then I go back to the studio. Then I begin to think about certain things. I begin looking for specific keyboard settings that reflect my original inspiration. Then it becomes involved. Then I spend 10 to 12 hours a day recording drum parts. Or writing the bass part on the piano keys. Sometimes I'll stay up for 2 days straight obsessively trying to get a piece of music to flow exactly the way I want it and then after the final take...collapse on the couch. It's self-indulgent, obsessive, insane, call it what you want from a negative point of view, but I live for it. ...and not for money. If I don't do it...I feel unhappy and bored with life. Art is sometimes demanding of your time. Especially if you have talent. It will drain you physically and mentally until you complete that piece of music and get it right. Other times ideas build slowly. Sometimes I'll have a really good idea and I will discover that it belongs in a piece that I already recorded. So I re-record the piece adding in the new idea and when I listen back I think.." Yes!! That's what this piece needed to bring it life" They are no rules. Once you start putting rules to music your not playing music anymore. Your playing rules. If I write and record a piece that ends up being categorized as a sub genre of Progressive Rock it's all by chance. It's mostly based around what I was feeling when I wrote it as opposed to trying to come up with something that sounds like Progressive Rock. |
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David_D
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Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 13542 |
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 15:39 |
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But when reacting this way, I can understand why not so many people start new threads, especially those with some more discussions.
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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progaardvark
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Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Sea of Peas Status: Offline Points: 49166 |
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 15:50 |
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I think I'm going to eat peanut butter tonight.
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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
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Cristi
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Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 41771 |
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 15:51 |
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Atavachron
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 64700 |
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 16:53 |
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Leave it to an Off at Tangents poster to wrap things up so nicely. I think I'll eat peanut butter tonight, too. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Jaketejas
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Joined: March 27 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1969 |
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 18:45 |
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I think it depends on subgenre of Prog. It’s kind of like The Breakfast Club. The Prog metal are like the jocks, because they are pushing the technical and time boundaries to extreme limits. The Crossover are like the preps, because they like blending Prog with mainstream pop and rock. They seem normal enough, but there is something a big quirky about them. The Eclectic are a bit like the drama folks, because they always want to do something different. That’s why they’re always rotating band members. They want to work with different casts of characters. The Math Rock are like the science nerds. In the end, everything has to add up to some multiple of pi. The Space Rock are the tokers, often from the ‘60s and ‘70s. They are motivated by a good transcendent astral trip. The Krautrock are the cool foreign exchange students from Europe who bring fresh sounding music from across the pond. And the Jazz Rock are like the smiling kids at the table with the peanut allergies. They’re awesome, too, but on a bit of a different wavelength with their 7th #9 b5 chords. I joke, of course, but Progarchives is an amazing place with many different cliques who, just like in Breakfast Club, learn to communicate with each other and learn from one another. |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16577 |
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 19:50 |
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Hi, You'll like Peter Brook's talk about Keith Mitchell when they did King Lear ... and when it came time to the repetition of the same word ... Peter Brook says, he never heard Keith do it the same way for over 500 performances they did. I like to say ... it's a different night! And it all feels different, and Keith was likely very hip to that, but it takes a master director to know that it gave LIFE to the work, instead of giving it PLAY to the work! And in all the work Peter Brook has done, this is what he is all about. Check out the film "The Tightrope" for more. It's not even about "music" or the "subculture", if it all could be measured and defined correctly ... it's about each and every expression at each and every moment, since they will never be the same ... unless it is a Hollywood or Bollywood movie, of course!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Jaketejas
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Joined: March 27 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1969 |
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Posted: January 29 2022 at 20:20 |
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^ Interesting post! I will do so. A bit of improvisation certainly must add spice for a performer. I can’t imagine a musician wanting to play something in precisely the same way day in and day out for a hundred shows. I feel like this is why Bill Bruford changed bands so many times and eventually landed in King Crimson and also jazz bands.
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David_D
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Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 13542 |
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Posted: January 30 2022 at 08:15 |
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Very creative, Jaketejas, informative, too, and a very good and constructive point. Thank you
 Edited by David_D - January 30 2022 at 08:23 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16577 |
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Posted: January 30 2022 at 09:04 |
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Hi, The one thing that rock fans are missing, that was around 50+ years ago, was listening to the same piece of classical music done by a different conductor. They were NOT the same, and the differences, while minor, still made a far out experience for a listener. AND, some conductors changed the configuration and sitting of the instruments to help create a different sound and touch on the piece! Rock music STILL doesn't know what that's about, and uses "lyrics" to tell you the story ... imagine that! The only thing that I am not a great fan off is the mechanical side of it all, and while I do not dislike KC, what you see these days in their version of the band with the 3 drummers and what not, is way too much a mechanical thing for me, for which a drummer like Gavin fits really well ... I loved what I saw, but it lacked a lot of soul and feeling beyond the notes for me. I suppose that someone will say that I am inventing things about the music (soul and feeling) that is not there, but if I have to choose between the current version of Red or Starless, I will take Bill's every day! And that's not to say that it is "better" ... it just has a more "natural" feeling for me that the newer version does not. It's almost like the current version is the modern day hack symphony in your town. Well rehearsed ... and that's it? They sure know the notes. But do they feel and know the music? Another example, is something you don't see often. People doing Frank Zappa material, and I can not help think that this is exactly the situation ... if you only do the "notes", the music will fall flat and not be appreciated, and then you can hear Rachel Flowers, and these are faithful renditions, but they also have spunk and touch when it needs it, even if Frank did it differently. Slightly different, but Rachel did not "change" the feeling at all ... somehow it had it, though with a woman feel, rather than Frank's ... another story! Again, almost all of this is about THE INDIVIDUAL, and not the "music" (as in a lot of everyone else's) or a "sub-culture", a term that we invented to try and place some different/odd stuff into it ... sort of similar to neo this and that and psych this or that, or art this and that. My point is ... why are we compartmentalizing the music? Are we even listening to it with good ears at all? I don't think so, otherwise very few of us would even say that one band sounds like another. After all, the instruments and amplification are the same, so you are expecting something different? And this was the really difficult moment when Manticore released Banco and PFM here in the USA ... and immediately people compared both bands to ELP, which was the most incredible and stupid thing ever ... all it said was that none of those folks EVER listened to the albums at all! We have the same issue here. And I can't help thinking that we are not listening, because we are so conditioned to top this and that and our friends' likes and dislikes! So much so that the lack of individuality shows immediately in the choices of movies, arts, bands, and of course ... even their clothing! But creating an "excuse" to try and justify something based on a really bad premise ... is another story altogether! Feels like a lot of universities and their studies of "progressive music" (mostly in upper levels for graduate students) and ... they still don't know, or can define the music other than it sounds like YES, GENESIS, or ELP. (... and then we have books about blue guitars and shaking keyboards that fly! ... as if that was THE music! Ohhh excuse me ... the sub-culture!)
Edited by moshkito - January 30 2022 at 09:06 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Cristi wrote: