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Divisive Prog Albums

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verslibre View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 11:04
The very definition of divisive.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 11:13
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

The very definition of divisive.



You're probably right.
I have always enjoyed it. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 11:41
I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. Rating any album 3 or 4 stars is pretty normal, so a "divisive" album should have many 5 and 2 or 1 while having a good number of ratings. Looking at typical percentages I'd say that a divisive album should at least have 20% 5 star ratings and at least 10% 2 or 1 star (people come here for the music they like, so there's more going on at the upper end; an album with less than 20% 5 star just isn't very appreciated).

Let's have a look at some albums discussed here. Tales from Topographic Oceans just has 7% negative, Brain Salad Surgery has 5%, The Wall has 6% (Final Cut only 14% 5 stars on the other hand, against 28% negative ratings; Ummagumma has 14:18, kind of divisive but not very many who appreciate it highly though I'm one of them), A Passion Play just 5%, Tago Mago 7%, Awake 5%, Frances the Mute 8%. So all these are not super divisive as there are not that many who rate them 1 or 2. ALT on the other hand has only 7% 5 stars against 53% 1 or 2; other well known VDGG don't make 10% 1 or 2 stars, neither most of King Crimson, though Beat with 9:20 looks very negative (I'm one of the 9% to rate it at 5 stars!).

The most divisive album I have found is Trout Mask Replica, which collects 40% 5 stars against 20% 1/2 stars. That's quite something. Dream Theater's The Astonishing clocks in at 22% 5 stars, 32% 1 or 2 - in fact 22% 5 stars is quite astonishing with 32% negatives. A View From the Top of The World scores 31:12 (but doesn't have that many ratings), Octavarium 26:11. Dream Theater are pretty divisive indeed, if not Awake.

Later Mars Volta's Bedlam in Goliath qualifies with 24:15. Amarok just about makes the cut with 42:11. Zeit is indeed pretty divisive with 30:12. Not quite up there but still in is one of my favourites, My Life in the Bush of Ghosts (30:10).

Looking at Zappa, Jazz From Hell misses by an inch with 19:11, other than that I didn't find any that came close to qualifying (occasionally 8% negative for generally appreciated albums). Neither get Gentle Giant in, nor Genesis (far too few negatives up to Wind and Wuthering, far too few 5 stars after), nor Camel (I think of Breathless as divisive, but just 10% 5 stars are not enough for this game).
  
Rush has Power Windows at 22:13 (I don't know that one), otherwise they are not quite as divisive. Let's look at Swans, The Seer has 36:13, To Be Kind 33:15, very divisive! There are more, but they have fewer than 100 ratings; even The Seer and To Be Kind have quite a bit fewer ratings than most other albums I mention here.

Just seen: Tangerine Dream Cyclone seemed to be a good candidate to me, but I'm surprised that it only has 8% 1 or 2 stars (personally I like it a lot).


Edited by Lewian - May 08 2023 at 11:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 11:58
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. Rating any album 3 or 4 stars is pretty normal, so a "divisive" album should have many 5 and 2 or 1 while having a good number of ratings. Looking at typical percentages I'd say that a divisive album should at least have 20% 5 star ratings and at least 10% 2 or 1 star (people come here for the music they like, so there's more going on at the upper end; an album with less than 20% 5 star just isn't very appreciated).

Let's have a look at some albums discussed here. Tales from Topographic Oceans just has 7% negative, Brain Salad Surgery has 5%, The Wall has 6% (Final Cut only 14% 5 stars on the other hand, against 28% negative ratings; Ummagumma has 14:18, kind of divisive but not very many who appreciate it highly though I'm one of them), A Passion Play just 5%, Tago Mago 7%, Awake 5%, Frances the Mute 8%. So all these are not super divisive as there are not that many who rate them 1 or 2. ALT on the other hand has only 7% 5 stars against 53% 1 or 2; other well known VDGG don't make 10% 1 or 2 stars, neither most of King Crimson, though Beat with 9:20 looks very negative (I'm one of the 9% to rate it at 5 stars!).

The most divisive album I have found is Trout Mask Replica, which collects 40% 5 stars against 20% 1/2 stars. That's quite something. Dream Theater's The Astonishing clocks in at 22% 5 stars, 32% 1 or 2 - in fact 22% 5 stars is quite astonishing with 32% negatives. A View From the Top of The World scores 31:12 (but doesn't have that many ratings), Octavarium 26:11. Dream Theater are pretty divisive indeed, if not Awake.

Later Mars Volta's Bedlam in Goliath qualifies with 24:15. Amarok just about makes the cut with 42:11. Zeit is indeed pretty divisive with 30:12. Not quite up there but still in is one of my favourites, My Life in the Bush of Ghosts (30:10).

Looking at Zappa, Jazz From Hell misses by an inch with 19:11, other than that I didn't find any that came close to qualifying (occasionally 8% negative for generally appreciated albums). Neither get Gentle Giant in, nor Genesis (far too few negatives up to Wind and Wuthering, far too few 5 stars after), nor Camel (I think of Breathless as divisive, but just 10% 5 stars are not enough for this game).
  
Rush has Power Windows at 22:13 (I don't know that one), otherwise they are not quite as divisive. Let's look at Swans, The Seer has 36:13, To Be Kind 33:15, very divisive! There are more, but they have fewer than 100 ratings; even The Seer and To Be Kind have quite a bit fewer ratings than most other albums I mention here.

Just seen: Tangerine Dream Cyclone seemed to be a good candidate to me, but I'm surprised that it only has 8% 1 or 2 stars (personally I like it a lot).



Does Steven Wilson's "The Future Bites" qualify as "divisive album" under the criteria outlined in your math formula?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:07
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Does Steven Wilson's "The Future Bites" qualify as "divisive album" under the criteria outlined in your math formula?

I say it is divisive ,based on what I've seen here on PA and a couple other sites I've visited. People either praise it or totally dislike it. 


Edited by Cristi - May 08 2023 at 12:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:21
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

From Chris H review of the incredible Tago Mago by Can (Krautrock is in general more popular anyywhere else but here)
<div ="avatarhp-"="">







1 stars ...Hmmm, this listen was uhhh interesting? Let me start from the beginning here. I had heard
the track "Bring Me Coffee or Tea" off of somewhere, I can't remember at the moment, but
I actually rather liked it. So one day I was poking around some bargain bins, and lo and
behold here it was. I bought it for $2.50, and popped it in the stereo. It couldn't have
been 10 minutes before my mother comes up and says "What is this crap?". I couldn't
agree more Mom! This has to take the cake for the most pointless album ever made. Ever. "Peking O"
and "Mushroom" are two of the stupidest, pointless songs I have ever heard...



that's a review?! Stern Smile And here i thought I was bad at it. (ffs Censored LOL)


That's not a review, it's a pointless rant. Another person who doesn't get it and has a hissy fit about an album beyond his / her comprehension.


well, it is a review it seems. I think some people just forget it's not just what you say (that matters), it's how you say it it's just as important. 


No it’s not a review. It conveys absolutely nothing about the album just the listeners inability to process it

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Negoba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:23
I also dislike Tago Mago. Are you assuming I can't understand or process it?

Ash Ra Tempel's debut is one of my favorite all time albums, BTW.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:24
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

From Chris H review of the incredible Tago Mago by Can (Krautrock is in general more popular anyywhere else but here)
the track "Bring Me Coffee or Tea" off of somewhere, I can't remember at the moment, but
I actually rather liked it. So one day I was poking around some bargain bins, and lo and
behold here it was. I bought it for $2.50, and popped it in the stereo. It couldn't have
been 10 minutes before my mother comes up and says "What is this crap?". I couldn't
agree more Mom! This has to take the cake for the most pointless album ever made. Ever. "Peking O"
and "Mushroom" are two of the stupidest, pointless songs I have ever heard...



that's a review?! Stern Smile And here i thought I was bad at it. (ffs Censored LOL)


That's not a review, it's a pointless rant. Another person who doesn't get it and has a hissy fit about an album beyond his / her comprehension.


well, it is a review it seems. I think some people just forget it's not just what you say (that matters), it's how you say it it's just as important. 


No it’s not a review. It conveys absolutely nothing about the album just the listeners inability to process it

if it's not a review, report it, tell the admins to get rid of it. LOL
You can argue it's a poorly written, useless review and I'd agree. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:35
^ in Chris H's defence I didn't post the full review (which is why I wrote "from"). I guess there's minimal improvement, but here's the rest:

...Maybe you need to be on shrooms to get everything out of them? Just a thought...

Well anyways, "Bring Me Coffee Or Tea" is the only listenable track on this album, even the so called "epic" "Halleluwah", which is once again, pointless. It's just a shame "Bring Me Coffee Or Tea" was the first song I heard, because it cost me $2.50. 1 star, DO NOT BUY!...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:57
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. ............
...............

Allright! That is a very thorough approach. Thumbs Up
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve Wyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 13:27
3 pages in and so far no one has mentioned two of the most divisive prog albums of all:

Yes: 90125
Genesis: Abacab

(I happen to love'em both!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 13:39

If anybody could be curious about whether a particular album is divisive, RYM shows rating statistics for all albums.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 13:39
Using Lewian's formula (that I like)

Steve Wilson - The Future Bites - 10:40 - not divisive, not enough 5 stars
Yes - 90215 - 13:25 - not divisive, not enough 5 stars
Genesis - Abacab - 6:36 - not divisive just disliked broadly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 13:47
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Does Steven Wilson's "The Future Bites" qualify as "divisive album" under the criteria outlined in your math formula?

I'd say not on RYM, as the vast majority give it 2-4 stars, but you can have a look at the statistics yourself.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 13:52
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. ............
...............
Allright! That is a very thorough approach. Thumbs Up

But it's of course still quite a question how exactly define "divisive".

                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 13:55
divisive
dĭ-vī′sĭv
adjective
  1. Creating dissension or discord.


Edited by Cristi - May 08 2023 at 13:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 14:00
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

If anybody could be curious about whether a particular album is divisive, RYM shows rating statistics for all albums.

And now I discovered that so does PA. Smile
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 14:03
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

divisive
dĭ-vī′sĭv
adjective
  1. Creating dissension or discord.

I meant an exact definition in relation to the "mathematical angle", as it's surely a matter of choice.

                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 14:12
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. ............
...............
Allright! That is a very thorough approach. Thumbs Up
But it's of course still quite a question how exactly define "divisive".

To begin with, I would juxtapose 4-5 stars against 1-2 stars.

                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 14:25
Originally posted by Steve Wyzard Steve Wyzard wrote:

3 pages in and so far no one has mentioned two of the most divisive prog albums of all:

Yes: 90125
Genesis: Abacab

(I happen to love'em both!)

I love Big Generator more than 90125.  Is that divisive? 

When it comes to 90125 vs Abacab or Numbers vs Letter albums....I wonder which album do most people feel in the biggest Sellout?    I vote Abacab by far, since I adore 90125.Wink
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