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Ambient Hurricanes View Drop Down
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2013 at 22:29
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by sherrynoland sherrynoland wrote:

I think, as with everything else, humanity is evolving towards more PERSONAL responsibility.  Now that we can find and share music so easily, and also steal it, we have to decide one person at a time whether will, or not.


Music is sound. You can't own sound, therefore you can't steal sound. I don't download music because I like owning a physical object like a CD or a record, and because I like to support the artist, but I don't think making a copy of a file I own is stealing any more than making a copy of key I own is.

But I digress...


There's nothing illegal about making a copy of the file you own.  The illegal part is stealing the file in the first place.


What if I then give that copy to friend? If I own it, I should be able to give it away, right? What if I make a thousand copies and give them to a thousand friends?


I say that if you buy a CD or download an album, you own it; but you bought one copy.  What other formats you want to convert it to is your own choice, but once you start giving it away you not only presume to own the copy of the record but to own the intellectual property to the music itself.  I see this as not only illegal, but just plain unethical.


I don't see how you can own a sound or a thought. I also don't see how something can be stealing if you don't deprive someone of something they own. If I copy your music, you still have it. You have lost nothing, so how can it be theft. You will likely answer that you have lost potential revenue from your music, but how can you claim ownership of something that is only potential? People deciding not to buy your music doesn't violate your rights.


So in other words you don't believe in intellectual property?
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thellama73 View Drop Down
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2013 at 22:48
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


So in other words you don't believe in intellectual property?


Exactly.
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Points: 21604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2013 at 22:48
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


So in other words you don't believe in intellectual property?


No he doesn't believe in paying for music and doesn't mind if it all goes away due to lack of funding. Apparently he doesn't believe there are any expenses that need to be recouped to record the music in the first place. It just 'happens'.
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2013 at 22:50
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


So in other words you don't believe in intellectual property?


No he doesn't believe in paying for music and doesn't mind if it all goes away due to lack of funding. Apparently he doesn't believe there are any expenses that need to be recouped to record the music in the first place. It just 'happens'.


Did I not say that I never download music because I want to support the artist? I believe I did. Please don't put words in my mouth.

There is little evidence that art ceases to be made in the lack of IP law. For example, people make lots of money as fashion designers or chefs, even though there is no IP protection for recipes or designs.
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Points: 21604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2013 at 22:50
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:



Trying to shill product while denying that you are shilling product is still shilling product. And shilling while you make your dramatic exit is the apotheosis of shilling.


Well said sir, there's nothing worse that someone shilling a product getting the hump when people don't fawn over the product.
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Points: 18049 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2013 at 23:18
Originally posted by sherrynoland sherrynoland wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Of course I'm talking about this site. We've been here long enough to know what pisses people off and we tried to warn you - spam the site and people won't like it  - but you knew better and regarded us as "hostile" (Bob is the least hostile person I've ever met online). 
 

 

(And Mozart didn't die a pauper, he wasn't wealthy but he was popular and was earning a living when he died)

<font ="Apple-style-span" size="2">Mozart was having to beg friends for money at the end of his life.  But there are endless other examples of the point I'm making and I think you know it.
<font ="Apple-style-span" size="2">
<font ="Apple-style-span" size="2">As for spamming, that's bullsh*t.  Back in the beginning, not knowing any betterI put a post on every forum that I thought pertained to the material.  I accepted that that wasn't necessary, when I was told that people would see it if I only posted on one, because they look at all the forums.  
<font ="Apple-style-span" size="2">
<font ="Apple-style-span" size="2">Then when there was something new to post, like the record company's press release for the new CD on the Prog News and Press Release forum, these posts were moved within other threads about other subjects, like a two-yr-old post about the reunion.  All they had in common was that they were both about Flash.  Meantime, I was seeing lots of threads about other bands.  Didn't seem fair to me and when I said so, the messages I got WERE hostile—very unfriendly—just as your comments are now. 
<font ="Apple-style-span" size="2">
<font ="Apple-style-span" size="2">I was here for only one purpose—not to have discussions like this thread, but to impart all the latest news about Flash.  Is there anything wrong with that?  Imparting info instead of discussing?  I didn't know that wasn't allowed either.  <span ="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 19px; font-size: small; ">After being clued in to how the site works, I didn't repeat myself unless it seemed appropriate in response to a comment. </span><span ="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 19px; font-size: small; ">it's certainly not spamming.  Look up the definition.</span>
<font ="Apple-style-span" size="2"><span ="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 19px;"></span>
<font ="Apple-style-span" size="2"><span ="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 19px;">I'll gladly leave now.  Carry on.</span>
<font ="Apple-style-span" size="2"><span ="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 19px;"></span>
<font ="Apple-style-span" size="2"><span ="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 19px;">I'll leave you with this comment from one of many on the Flash facebook page.  The music is what it's all about.  Either you like it, or you don't...</span>
<font ="Apple-style-span" size="2"><span ="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 19px;"></span>
<span ="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11px; ">Erik Endresen<span id=".reactRoot7076402.2comment327745087358998_827579.1:0.4:0:1.3:1.4:0:1.1:1.1:0.1"> </span><span -ft=""tn":"K"" id=".reactRoot7076402.2comment327745087358998_827579.1:0.4:0:1.3:1.4:0:1.1:1.1:0.1:0:2"><span id=".reactRoot7076402.2comment327745087358998_827579.1:0.4:0:1.3:1.4:0:1.1:1.1:0.1:0:2.2:0"><span id=".reactRoot7076402.2comment327745087358998_827579.1:0.4:0:1.3:1.4:0:1.1:1.1:0.1:0:2.2:0.3:0:0">OMG! Fantastic cd. This new release towers over your other three releases. The music is at times over the top intense and man the bass guitar is incredible. I have not heard bass like that since the release of Beck, Bogart Appice. Excellent production... Keep it up- after all of these 40 years! I want more!</span></span></span></span>


I thiink I said something about......at least the kids are listening to music, whether you like it or not is another issue....regardless of genre.
Bands like Nectar, Wishbone Ash may know they will not attract a large audience anymore, but 50 people is a bit unsettling, if true......maybe they are just not good anymore live.
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Ambient Hurricanes View Drop Down
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2013 at 23:21
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


So in other words you don't believe in intellectual property?


Exactly.


I do.

I see where you're coming from, though, and I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree - 'cause I doubt either of us can prove whether intellectual property exists or not (though if you can, I'm willing to listen).
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Points: 377 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2013 at 23:26
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:



I thiink I said something about......at least the kids are listening to music, whether you like it or not is another issue....regardless of genre.
Bands like Nectar, Wishbone Ash may know they will not attract a large audience anymore, but 50 people is a bit unsettling, if true......maybe they are just not good anymore live.

Maybe.  I haven't heard them and was never a fan.  But people who were there said they were great.  Some said even better than ever.  I was gratified to hear that their Chicago gig had a good turn-out, and the audience was loving it.
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2013 at 23:33
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


So in other words you don't believe in intellectual property?


Exactly.


I do.

I see where you're coming from, though, and I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree - 'cause I doubt either of us can prove whether intellectual property exists or not (though if you can, I'm willing to listen).


Nah, that's okay. I can't prove anything, but I think the logic is sound. I only very recently came around to not believing in IP, so it's certainly a difficult issue.
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Points: 377 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2013 at 23:50
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

 

Trying to shill product while denying that you are shilling product is still shilling product. And shilling while you make your dramatic exit is the apotheosis of shilling.

Excuse me for interrupting the discussion about IP, but I want to respond to Dark Elk's comment.

I'm not denying that I've been advertising product, or "shilling" as you call it.  You're just plain wrong to accuse me of denying anything. I said that's what I was here for—to share info about Flash and to promote them.  There's nothing wrong with that in my book. You don't like it?  Fine.  Some people do.  Some people are actually thrilled with all the news they can get about new music from a veteran band.  But, as I said, I was slow to accept that there aren't many here, so I've agreed to stop.  I started this post to be sure of that.  No matter how surprised I am, I'm not "getting the hump" over that, Nogbad. What I don't like is how unfriendly and impolite some of you are, like yourself. 

Flash has always been more popular with a free-thinking, non-judgmental, happy, pleasant crowd who appreciates that what they do IS art.  Art makes you happy.  Discussing it intellectually won't.
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2013 at 00:11
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


So in other words you don't believe in intellectual property?


Exactly.


I do.

I see where you're coming from, though, and I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree - 'cause I doubt either of us can prove whether intellectual property exists or not (though if you can, I'm willing to listen).


Nah, that's okay. I can't prove anything, but I think the logic is sound. I only very recently came around to not believing in IP, so it's certainly a difficult issue.


Yeah, I can see both sides and they both make sense.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2013 at 01:30
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


So in other words you don't believe in intellectual property?


No he doesn't believe in paying for music and doesn't mind if it all goes away due to lack of funding. Apparently he doesn't believe there are any expenses that need to be recouped to record the music in the first place. It just 'happens'.


Did I not say that I never download music because I want to support the artist? I believe I did. Please don't put words in my mouth.

There is little evidence that art ceases to be made in the lack of IP law. For example, people make lots of money as fashion designers or chefs, even though there is no IP protection for recipes or designs.
Ah-hem. There is no IP protection in the USA for fashion designers but there is in Europe. The argument against IP protection in the USA is a thing called the Piracy Paradox (innovation contines inspite of, or even because of, piracy) - yet it is Europe that leads in fashion design, which pops the Piracy Paradox bubble somewhat.

Edited by Dean - July 02 2013 at 01:40
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Points: 30264 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2013 at 02:08
Well I used to go and watch bands at my local Art Centre on a regular basis (and this included Wishbone Ash, Mountain, Colosseum , Carl Palmer , Focus etc) with an audience of around 100-150 people (that is the rough capacity). However around 5 years ago the last gig I saw there was Steve Howe .. and it wasn't a sell out. The writing was on the wall. I think the economic downturn has a had a massive impact on classic bands although the very biggest will still get by. Be interesting to see how Yes get on next year without Anderson and Wakeman.

BTW does anyone know whether The High Voltage Festival has bit the dust for good?


Edited by richardh - July 02 2013 at 02:09
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Points: 166183 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2013 at 02:11
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Points: 12794 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2013 at 02:22
Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

Nothing dies, nothing lives.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2013 at 02:23
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by sherrynoland sherrynoland wrote:

I think, as with everything else, humanity is evolving towards more PERSONAL responsibility.  Now that we can find and share music so easily, and also steal it, we have to decide one person at a time whether will, or not.


Music is sound. You can't own sound, therefore you can't steal sound. I don't download music because I like owning a physical object like a CD or a record, and because I like to support the artist, but I don't think making a copy of a file I own is stealing any more than making a copy of key I own is.

But I digress...


There's nothing illegal about making a copy of the file you own.  The illegal part is stealing the file in the first place.


What if I then give that copy to friend? If I own it, I should be able to give it away, right? What if I make a thousand copies and give them to a thousand friends?


I say that if you buy a CD or download an album, you own it; but you bought one copy.  What other formats you want to convert it to is your own choice, but once you start giving it away you not only presume to own the copy of the record but to own the intellectual property to the music itself.  I see this as not only illegal, but just plain unethical.


I don't see how you can own a sound or a thought. I also don't see how something can be stealing if you don't deprive someone of something they own. If I copy your music, you still have it. You have lost nothing, so how can it be theft. You will likely answer that you have lost potential revenue from your music, but how can you claim ownership of something that is only potential? People deciding not to buy your music doesn't violate your rights.
It's all academic anyway, we've already queered the pitch and bought into the solution, soon the concept of owning any artisitc material (be that music, film or literature) will be consigned to history. The ease of copying is in the storage so the industry's response is to deny us the storage capacity to do that - once you have hardware with limited storage capacity and have to use the so-called Cloud your ownership of the data ceases, you are merely renting it.

Edited by Dean - July 02 2013 at 02:23
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2013 at 02:38
Originally posted by sherrynoland sherrynoland wrote:

People complain about the shallowness of pop music today


Rock was big in the 60s and 70s. Never again will it be that big. There are still great rock bands, it's just they rarely make big money. Just let it go.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2013 at 02:41
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by sherrynoland sherrynoland wrote:

People complain about the shallowness of pop music today


Rock was big in the 60s and 70s. Never again will it be that big. There are still great rock bands, it's just they rarely make big money. Just let it go.
And people complained about the shallowness of manufactured pop in the 60s and 70s.
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Points: 65824 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2013 at 02:50
^Of course they did, and I have little doubt in hindsight our current time will be seen as a great time for all music because you can get it, whether disc or download.   It is available like it never has been, new and old, popular and un-, and it may not be that way forever.   Just saying.
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^ exactly
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