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Divisive Prog Albums

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Lewian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 15:08
Of course my definition of "divisive" is just made up and you can have another one. Particularly I didn't specify a minimum number of ratings overall but I should, for being thorough (maybe 100 or 200). I have my reasons though; I say at least 20% 5 stars as there need to be enough people to defend an album passionately for being "divisive". Also higher ratings are generally preferred, therefore 20% isn't really that much. Almost everybody gives 4 stars to almost everything, so the number of 4 star ratings doesn't really indicate a polarising album, but as I said, you may disagree. Alternatively you can think of an album that has a very few really passionate fans and is not appreciated by many as "divisive" though (I'd defend Beat, ALT, and Ummagumma for sure). I found it interesting how few people actually rate albums such as Topographic Oceans, Passion Play, or even Tago Mago low, given that we have in mind that there are some haters (not necessarily meant in a negative way; I'd give one of these 2 stars myself Cool).
  
Anyway, Steven Wilson comes closer with To The Bone (18:16). You can check it yourself easily of course.


Edited by Lewian - May 08 2023 at 15:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 15:12
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Does Steven Wilson's "The Future Bites" qualify as "divisive album" under the criteria outlined in your math formula?

I say it is divisive ,based on what I've seen here on PA and a couple other sites I've visited. People either praise it or totally dislike it. 

On PA I haven't seen much enthusiasm. Some like it but I don't think very passionately. Maybe it finds more love elsewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 15:19
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Does Steven Wilson's "The Future Bites" qualify as "divisive album" under the criteria outlined in your math formula?

I say it is divisive ,based on what I've seen here on PA and a couple other sites I've visited. People either praise it or totally dislike it. 

On PA I haven't seen much enthusiasm. Some like it but I don't think very passionately. Maybe it finds more love elsewhere.

You're right
Check out the rating summary on metalstorm



Edited by Cristi - May 08 2023 at 15:29
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 15:35
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Using Lewian's formula (that I like)

Steve Wilson - The Future Bites - 10:40 - not divisive, not enough 5 stars
Yes - 90215 - 13:25 - not divisive, not enough 5 stars
Genesis - Abacab - 6:36 - not divisive just disliked broadly.

Yeah, subjective perception of "divisive" can be different from the numbers. I suspect people who give Topographic Oceans 3 stars think they're rather disappointed and negative given how good Yes were otherwise roughly at that time, whereas those who give Abacab 3 stars (even maybe the same people) think they're rather positive as they kind of like the album and rate it better than what they hear from others. Numbers are good at showing such things. Of course if there is a huge number of ratings as for the Yes albums, even small percentages amount to a fairly large number of people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 15:37

If to be quite serious about this "divisive" stuff, I'd say:

4-5 stars  -  "likes"
1-2 stars  -  "dislikes"

an album is "divisive" when ratings are:

1. likes% circa equal to dislikes% 
2. likes + dislikes = at least 60% of all ratings
3. minimum 300 persons have rated

But that might be too serious. Big smile

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Lewian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 15:48
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

1. likes% circa equal to dislikes%

That's a pretty tough one. It'll rule out most albums we have talked about.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 16:51
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

1. likes% circa equal to dislikes%

That's a pretty tough one. It'll rule out most albums we have talked about.

Just something to think about, and you have surely more experience to make a more realistic definition, which might be interesting to see. Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 16:56
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

1. likes% circa equal to dislikes%

That's a pretty tough one. It'll rule out most albums we have talked about.

Just something to think about, and you have surely more experience to make a more realistic definition, which might be interesting to see. Smile


Well, I'm fine with the one I already have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 17:33
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

I also dislike Tago Mago. Are you assuming I can't understand or process it?

Ash Ra Tempel's debut is one of my favorite all time albums, BTW.


Yes. That's exactly what i'm presuming. I didn't like it either at first until i invested a great deal of time in unlocking its secrets.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 17:34
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

From Chris H review of the incredible Tago Mago by Can (Krautrock is in general more popular anyywhere else but here)
the track "Bring Me Coffee or Tea" off of somewhere, I can't remember at the moment, but
I actually rather liked it. So one day I was poking around some bargain bins, and lo and
behold here it was. I bought it for $2.50, and popped it in the stereo. It couldn't have
been 10 minutes before my mother comes up and says "What is this crap?". I couldn't
agree more Mom! This has to take the cake for the most pointless album ever made. Ever. "Peking O"
and "Mushroom" are two of the stupidest, pointless songs I have ever heard...



that's a review?! Stern Smile And here i thought I was bad at it. (ffs Censored LOL)


That's not a review, it's a pointless rant. Another person who doesn't get it and has a hissy fit about an album beyond his / her comprehension.


well, it is a review it seems. I think some people just forget it's not just what you say (that matters), it's how you say it it's just as important. 


No it’s not a review. It conveys absolutely nothing about the album just the listeners inability to process it

if it's not a review, report it, tell the admins to get rid of it. LOL
You can argue it's a poorly written, useless review and I'd agree. Smile


I honestly don't care enough to waste my time. Pisspoor reviews only reflect the integrity of the person posting them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 17:41
My take on "divisive" albums is that an album didn't sound like a favorite that came before.

That meaning it deviated significantly from what the listener expected RATHER THAN judging the album on its own merit.

On some albums in the prog realm for example, the artists presumed the audience was keeping up with them musically and intellectually and found there was a glass ceiling that didn't realize.

Divisive albums such as TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS seem to divide musicians and non-musicians.

Nothing new of course, bands like Gnidrolog faced this same dilemma.

Nothing wrong with anybody not liking any album of course.

It's all personal but to call an album crap because you don't get it is another thing.

I hate Genesis' Foxtrot and Nursery Cryme for the most part but i realize many people love these albums and i'm the one who doesn't get it.

Recognize you have blind spots, peeps!

It's just the reality of being human :)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frets N Worries Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 17:45
I recognize there are albums that I love that other people hate or just don't get why I like so much, that's the beauty of opinions, this is probably sacrelige, but one of my favorite albums is 'Hotel California', heck, it's probably my favorite album. I LOVE prog rock (obiously) yet I'm not a Genesis fan, yet I respect that they've all got incredible talent, I'm just not a fan, I'm just here to hear other people's unpopular opinions
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Frets N Worries Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 18:14
Is admitting I'm a huge Eagles fan and owning all their albums on vinyl going to get me banned from prog archives? I hope not
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 18:25
People have been beheaded for less. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 18:27
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Frets N Worries Frets N Worries wrote:

I think Larks' Tongues in Aspic is a bit overrated, yes.

I'm glad someone agrees with me. Big smile

Heresy!  I consider it one of the best albums ever recorded, of any genre.   My offering would have been "The Lamb."  Some creative editing would have made it more cogent & powerful. 

Here, worship The King!




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 18:36
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Albums are divisive for one simple reason. Some people GET IT and some don't.
You have to have the musical ability to comprehend the intention of the artist at hand.
I've found many of the most divisive albums are actually some of the best musical expressions to be heard.
Tales From Topographic Oceans is the perfect example.
Brilliant in every way but not instant gratification for those unwilling to dig deeper.
This has always been the case whether it be jazz, 20th century classical or any musical expression.
Over the years i've seen the ratings for many of these divisive albums rise as people catch up to the artists' visions.
THis probably sounds snobbish but you can't comprehend calculus if you haven't mastered basic algebra :)


Interesting but a lot of people find it uninspired and lacking the same punch, ideas or invention that was evident on Close To The Edge. It also felt very much like Howe/Anderson project rather than something everyone in the band was invested in. Even Rick Wakeman had his reservations and thought that the 4 x 20 minute strict format was just too 'artificial' resulting in the music padded out to fill the times. That's not how great music is created imo. So I don't think people are incorrect in their views or fail to understand what good music is about necessarily. It may not actually be that good when it comes down to it. However its almost notorious status has lead it to almost be the most famous prog album ever made and even non prog fans are aware of its existence!
My feeling is that it probably could have been better. The next album Relayer was better because it seemed to make the best of everyone's talents. White could 'smash' up a kit as well as anyone and Moraz was well suited to the more technical approach they adopted. Why they didn't build on this puzzles me, possibly the determination to get the now more famous Wakeman back into the band by Brian Lane was a factor but I haven't looked into it that deeply.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Frets N Worries Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 18:59
I've got a first pressing of Tales, it sounds amazing, however... I do think the Steven Wilson Remix was an improvement
The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.

Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 19:01
^ that's a great point. When certain individuals take control over the project it can rub people the wrong way. I don't engage in the bureaucracy so to speak. I just find it a brilliant album ( but not always so). It's an album that requires more investment than what came before. I get why many don't like it but as someone who didn't initially i can also see the light at the end of the tunnel so to speak.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Frets N Worries Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 19:09
Perhaps another reason why I like Tales is it was the first record i've bought withouth actually listening to anything off of it first. I found a very nice copy for about $17, ordered it, listened to it, and was blown away. Sometimes it's ok to judge a book by it's cover. The original album was amazing, but was lacking in production value in some spots, so when Steven Wilson remixed it, it just made everything sound clearer, I had also just gotten wisdom teeth out, and had a ton of pain meds in me, so maybe that had something to do with it. 
The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.

Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2023 at 19:20
^ that's also a great point. Sometimes i find a remastered album the ticket to the brilliance intended!

In other cases it doesn't matter or diminishes. A crap shoot!

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