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bardberic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote bardberic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2023 at 08:32
First of all, yes Wikipedia is an absolutely atrocious source for information. I don't care what study stated it's not much worse than Britannica - inaccuracies aren't the only thing to look for., i I have no clue how they're even defining inaccuracies. Wikipedia indeed is a major offender of spreading propaganda and misinformation, and this is due to the way the site operates, which is fundamentally flawed in regards to how they "validate" information there. It echoes what third party sources say, and the editors are not allowed to apply nuance or critical thinking. So if the biased, propagandized mainstream media makes an untruthful claim, it is valid as a Wikipedia source abs wouldn't necessarily count as an "inaccuracy," per se. At least the English Wikipedia is. The German and Hebrew sites are significantly more trustworthy. Wikipedia is fine for finding sources and references to non-political topics, but nothing should be taken as face value on the articles themselves. Not to mention the Wikipedian community is the most toxic place on the internet with morally questionable administration and an notorious, and often times enforced, left-winged bias.

With that said, propaganda is not always nonfactual. In fact, the best and most effective propaganda builds upon real world truths. The goal of propaganda is indeed to persuade public opinion on a certain matter, and this is ultimately done through taking information out of context and applying or even implying a subjective conclusion to it to appeal mostly to human pathos. In this regard, propaganda relies on fallacious emotion rather than contextualization of the subject matter. The point of propaganda of to have people pick the side they propagandist(s) want(s) them to as quickly as possible and with as little information as possible by appealing to their emotional side through logical fallacy. While it's easier to provide straight up lies, it's more effective to be stretch the truth in order to manipulate the target in being swayed. In the end, this era of headline reliance, doomscrolling, and hashtag culture has led to a generation of f**king idiots who cannot critically think, and thus even comprehend the complexities of most global affairs. This is propaganda at work - complacency with ones ignorance. It's fueling the fires of war and actually dragging on conflict through the eyes of the worldstage.

And nobody who falls victim to this even understands why. We need to teach our children to learn how to critically analyze information instead of feeding them "facts" to be taken as "truths." This is exactly how our youth has become so easily manipulated by propaganda. TikTok, Twitter, Instagram and f**king hastags provide an easy "take my side or you're wrong" approach sharing information, and the receivers literally do not even know that they can question what they're being told. I'm deeply concerned where we are heading. And I'm greatly disappointed in how we've allowed ourselves to get to this point.

Edited by bardberic - October 25 2023 at 08:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2023 at 08:57
^ the CIA playbook uses 80% truth poisoned with 20% propaganda similar to poisoning a gallon of fresh water with a tiny bit of polluting material.

Wikipedia is a well known CIA driven source of propaganda. In fact around the late 1800s and early 1900s the world's educational systems were changed to fit the Prussian model, the birthplace of the German Nazi regime.

The robber barons around the year 1900 were fearful of uprisings of peasants and commenced to "re-educate" through manipulated systems therefore encyclopedias and text books were rewritten and educational systems were completely overhauled.

If you are lucky enough to find an old encyclopedia set from the 1800s and compare it to what would emerge in the early 1900s you would see how radically different they are. There was a clear attempt to rewrite history around that time for the goal of complete social engineering.

When the CIA and other alphabet agencies were created in the late 1940s by Project Paperclip Nazis that the US imported, these programs escalated big time which brings us into the current era.

Wikipedia is great for subjects that aren't important to the power structure but controversial subjects are completely propagandized.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2023 at 08:59
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

What I mean can be read in this article by Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda  .
Wikipedia is a major source of propaganda.  If you use Wikipedia as a source on a college paper, you'll receive an F.  Wink

Colleges and universities have their own propaganda. Wink


An excellent point, that I'm painfully aware of.  I take at least one University course each spring/fall semester.  If it's a biology, physics, math, or chemistry class... the propaganda is minimal.   That said, propaganda is creeping into biology when it comes to biological/political issues. 


Edited by omphaloskepsis - October 25 2023 at 09:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2023 at 09:03
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Propaganda is simply information spread with the intention of influencing people, with the implication being that it's false or bullsh*t. I think that the usage of the word in this thread has been largely compatible with this definition. If you do not, by all means elaborate.

The fact that there's propaganda for a certain claim does in no way imply that the claim is false.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2023 at 09:06
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In fact around the late 1800s and early 1900s the world's educational systems were changed to fit the Prussian model, the birthplace of the German Nazi regime.
By whom?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2023 at 13:08
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Wikipedia is a major source of propaganda.  If you use Wikipedia as a source on a college paper, you'll receive an F.  Wink
Colleges and universities have their own propaganda. Wink
An excellent point, that I'm painfully aware of.  I take at least one University course each spring/fall semester.  If it's a biology, physics, math, or chemistry class... the propaganda is minimal.   That said, propaganda is creeping into biology when it comes to biological/political issues. 

But of course, Wikipedia is not research on such a high level as colleges and universities.

                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2023 at 14:25
It is the fault of those who who are unable take information with a critical eye as much as it is the fault of bad information.   It blames the sources instead of the reader.   Don't like Wikipedia?  Start your own goddamned website.

Complainers.   They criticize, start conflict, and then run away and hide in their little basements to let the adults figure it out... and the Complainers run the world right now.


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2023 at 14:38
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

It is the fault of those who who are unable take information with a critical eye as much as it is the fault of bad information.   It blames the sources instead of the reader.   Don't like Wikipedia?  Start your own goddamned website.

Complainers.   They criticize, start conflict, and then run away and hide in their little basements to let the adults figure it out... and the Complainers run the world right now.




LOL. LOL Love the visual of propaganda critics scurrying away and hiding in their little basements. Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2023 at 15:39
^ So do I.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2023 at 17:37
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Propaganda is just a euphemism for lies and bullsh*t, often for the purpose of advancing an ideology or ulterior motive (profit).

But I like your apparent contempt for lies and bulsh*tting. Smile




Edited by David_D - October 25 2023 at 17:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2023 at 23:58
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

It is the fault of those who who are unable take information with a critical eye as much as it is the fault of bad information.   It blames the sources instead of the reader.   Don't like Wikipedia?  Start your own goddamned website.

Complainers.   They criticize, start conflict, and then run away and hide in their little basements to let the adults figure it out... and the Complainers run the world right now.



Yes, the world would be so much better if people stopped asking questions and simply believed their government and its affiliated news outlets 100%. Asking questions is evil, do as you're told is good. Looking back at history it is obvious that all good things come from blindly following orders! And even if things go wrong ... it's never the fault of the people at the top - it's we idiots who simply aren't able to understand them properly! 


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 25 2023 at 23:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2023 at 01:23
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Propaganda is simply information spread with the intention of influencing people, with the implication being that it's false or bullsh*t. I think that the usage of the word in this thread has been largely compatible with this definition. If you do not, by all means elaborate.

The fact that there's propaganda for a certain claim does in no way imply that the claim is false.

It is a little more complicated. Propaganda usually works like this:

"We need to do X because Y" where X is a proposed goal (which is a lie), and Y is some claim that is either a lie or bullsh*t. You are certainly correct in that when we expose the Y claim as propaganda, it does not automatically follow that the goal stated in X is false.

Example: "We need to invade Irak because they have weapons of mass destruction". The fact that they did not have WMDs does not mean there was no reason to invade the country, it just means that there is much less reason to do so, and that more people would have criticised the decision to send troops there. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2023 at 15:26
Originally posted by bardberic bardberic wrote:

Wikipedia is an absolutely atrocious source for information
 
I strongly disagree. I find Wikipedia to be quite a good source of information, much better than what might be expected from an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. I have learnt quite a lot from Wikipedia, including from a wide range of highly technical subjects. I am often impressed by what articles are in Wikipedia. For example, there is even an article on the railway station that services the suburb of Sydney where I grew up.
 
 
Originally posted by bardberic bardberic wrote:

Wikipedia indeed is a major offender of spreading propaganda and misinformation
 
Wikipedia is not an instrument of propaganda. That is just paranoia. Particular articles may be written and/or edited by people with a vested interest, but this issue is more about the particular topics than about Wikipedia as a whole. If you're finding propaganda in Wikipedia, it is likely because you are looking up topics that are prone to propaganda. That is not Wikipedia's fault, and perhaps shows that it is you who is biased.
 
 
No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2023 at 15:51
I do a lot of work for other music sites and Wiki is quite good at band and album info. The best is Discogs and AllMusic, but Wiki is close. I can't recall ever seeing a particular mistake in that subject area.

Also was doing some reading on remote islands in the Atlantic and Pacific and wiki's info matched most other resources I had read as well.

I also like to read about past presidential primaries and look at the stats from any past year, once again the info is correct and don't recall seeing any unnecessary opinions thrown in, just the facts.
I can see why college professors don't want to see wiki in a research paper, any good prof is going to want you to dig deeper. Using wiki would seem lazy in that situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2023 at 16:20
^ Yeah because it's about taking in information from different sources and making the best judgement. Incorrect data?   Count on it.   Easily misled readers?   Oh yes.   

Quite frankly I don't believe anything.


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2023 at 16:27
^^^^I have been a wiki editor, and also have written essays for college, and the process for the wiki articles I created or just added to was a lot more laborious and painstaking than the college essays I worked on. (just a bit of feedback by someone who has done both)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2023 at 16:32
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

If you're finding propaganda in Wikipedia, it is likely because you are looking up topics that are prone to propaganda. That is not Wikipedia's fault, and perhaps shows that it is you who is biased. 

Ok - so if I'm looking up topics that are prone to propaganda, I am biased? In that case, please explain the bias.

The problem with Wikipedia is that it is not a neutral platform. In theory anyone can edit all the information, but in reality the editing is heavily biased towards popular political narratives.

Here's a video with more details.


(preparing for lots of comments on who made the video, and hardly any comments on the points made)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2023 at 17:56
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

If you're finding propaganda in Wikipedia, it is likely because you are looking up topics that are prone to propaganda. That is not Wikipedia's fault, and perhaps shows that it is you who is biased. 

Ok - so if I'm looking up topics that are prone to propaganda, I am biased? In that case, please explain the bias.

The problem with Wikipedia is that it is not a neutral platform. In theory anyone can edit all the information, but in reality the editing is heavily biased towards popular political narratives.

Here's a video with more details.


(preparing for lots of comments on who made the video, and hardly any comments on the points made)
 
The bias to which I refer is the bias towards topics that are prone to propaganda. There are millions of topics on Wikipedia of which the vast majority would not be prone to propaganda. To repudiate the entirety of Wikipedia on the basis of a very small proportion of it is a strongly biased viewpoint.
 
It is the nature of politics to be propagandising, and I challenge you to find any political discussion that is free of bias, either to the left or to the right. People in the wider community do tend to lean either to the left or to the right, so why should Wikipedia be any different, especially given that it is catering to those people in the wider community? In other words, you are accusing Wikipedia of a problem that is really a problem with the wider community.
 

No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2023 at 00:48
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

The bias to which I refer is the bias towards topics that are prone to propaganda. There are millions of topics on Wikipedia of which the vast majority would not be prone to propaganda. To repudiate the entirety of Wikipedia on the basis of a very small proportion of it is a strongly biased viewpoint.

That's not a "bias". You are essentially saying "Wikipedia does not contain a lot of propaganda in all the areas which are not prone to propaganda". I am saying "Wikipedia contains a lot of propaganda in all the areas prone to it". Those two statements are compatible. I am not saying that Wikipedia is generally unreliable, since, as you correctly point out, the vast majority of entries (numerically speaking) are not prone to propaganda. However, people are also using wikipedia to look up hot topics like the history of the state of Israel, the Ukraine war, Covid 19, and so on. It is these topics that we are discussing here. On those, I would say, Wikipedia is just as unreliable as any major news outlet, but whereas it is obvious that news outlets are biased, Wikipedia appears like a neutral source, which makes it worse IMHO.

And don't even get me started on "fact checker" websites ...

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

 
It is the nature of politics to be propagandising, and I challenge you to find any political discussion that is free of bias, either to the left or to the right. People in the wider community do tend to lean either to the left or to the right, so why should Wikipedia be any different, especially given that it is catering to those people in the wider community? In other words, you are accusing Wikipedia of a problem that is really a problem with the wider community.

No need to challenge me on that, since I neither claimed that "there are political discussions free of bias" or that the problem with Wikipedia is not a symptom of society at large.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2023 at 03:34
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

I do a lot of work for other music sites and Wiki is quite good at band and album info. The best is Discogs and AllMusic, but Wiki is close. I can't recall ever seeing a particular mistake in that subject area.

Also was doing some reading on remote islands in the Atlantic and Pacific and wiki's info matched most other resources I had read as well.

I also like to read about past presidential primaries and look at the stats from any past year, once again the info is correct and don't recall seeing any unnecessary opinions thrown in, just the facts.
I can see why college professors don't want to see wiki in a research paper, any good prof is going to want you to dig deeper. Using wiki would seem lazy in that situation.


Agreed on this (especially since I am working in a scientific research institute)Clap


When first starting out PA, Wiki was still relatively unreliable, because in its infancy; but 20years down the line with all its corrections, it's become reliable.
Even if I totally agree that Wiki is definitely not enough for a thesis: I wouldn't even cite it as a reference, for fear of losing credibility points.

I remember some members trying to introduce a PA membership page on Wiki in 2006LOL, and it got refused within a few hours, which proved that plenty of serious collabs (even back then) carefully overseeing its reliability.

====================

But as far as reliability of other encyclopedias - beit Britannica or Larousse (for french) -  it's very relative, because of the bias taken for writing the articles and thinking of whim will use them. The Occidental PoV will probably be minoritized as globalization keeps going.

History books have always been written by the "winners". There is a good chance that Australian, Russian, Canadian or Unitedstatian history books of the national history will dramatically change regarding their expansion/colonization of the internal borders. European history books will probably also be partially changed in the empire stages. 
For ex, most likely, within decades to come, Spain's national day will be changed as not for the discovery of the Americas  - because this means nowadays the start of a genocide (whether involuntary or sometimes plannified)

I'd be very much surprised that in 50 years' time, Britannica or Larousse are still around and their circa-millennium  or today's editions are still worthy of even reading.

New and old propagandas Wink





.


Edited by Sean Trane - October 27 2023 at 03:36
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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