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DisgruntledPorcupine 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: January 16 2010 Location: Thunder Bay CAN Status: Offline Points: 4395 |
 Posted: May 07 2010 at 16:21 |
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Most aren't.
I for one, am a huge elitist. But at least I admit it.  |
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23098 |
Posted: May 07 2010 at 17:02 |
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The question is whether you think of yourself as a better and more enlightened person than people who doesn´t listen to prog, and if you do you couldn´t be further from the truth. The fact of the matter is that we all get our inspiration and goosebumps, the things that make you go: this is what I live for - from different aspects of life. Some like paintings, music, the theater while others are more susceptible to skydiving with a scorpion down their trousers or diving with sharks with t-bone steak and a german sausage strapped to your face. Either way, who are we to judge what others find pleasure in? Which is best? This is the sort of talk that ultimately creates elitism in prog if not taken with a grain of salt...
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jplanet
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 30 2006 Location: NJ Status: Offline Points: 799 |
Posted: May 07 2010 at 18:03 |
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I think that sometimes hearing music that is very popular, but that I find to be low-quality, makes me feel like a snob, but I certainly don't relish that feeling by choice.
It's just like when I have some fast food that is very popular, but tastes gross to me - when I taste Domino's Pizza, I feel like a pizza snob because I can't see why anyone would want to eat it, AND it is lower quality than what I am used to. But by the same token - just as I love some fast food and comfort foods as opposed to haughty French cuisine - I don't think that I choose to be part of a lonely group that can't appreciate popular music. There are some pop songs that I really enjoy a lot. I found myself humming Beyonce's "Single Ladies" just the other day... When I got into prog in the early 80's, that's what all my friends were listening to - it was likely that the Yes and Rush concerts would be sold-out, and everyone had Yes and ELP logos on their denim notebook binder covers in high school...And when I saw that Transatlantic sold out the NYC show I just went to, I was very happy that they were that popular...So, no, for me, not snobbery, just what I grew up listening to...and I wish it was more popular than it is now... |
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Stonebolt
Forum Groupie 
Joined: May 04 2010 Status: Offline Points: 91 |
Posted: May 07 2010 at 20:16 |
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This thread has made me think, if you play a guitar in front of a group of 11 and 12 year olds, they're always like, "dude, play the hardest thing you know, the hardest thing you know!"
Why aren't all those kids listening to prog?
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: January 16 2008 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 15745 |
Posted: May 07 2010 at 20:19 |
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Because Prog is way too hard.
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Devonsidhe
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 21 2010 Location: PDX, OR Status: Offline Points: 74 |
Posted: May 07 2010 at 22:17 |
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I agree with a lot of what you said. I love pizza but if I ate it every day, I would get to the point where I couldn't stand it. But, I keep coming back to it because... I love it!!
Same thing with prog. Though I have to admit I tend to identify music more to the band that does it than the label it is under. Labels are helpful when exploring something you haven't heard before but once you've heard it, it has more to do with the artist than the category. Especially with prog when the variance is so great in the definition.
I could probably look at every different kind of music and find something I like. Even disco (All right. step away from the keyboard. It was an extreme example.)
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Even a man who stumbles around in the dark will influence those he does not see.
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23098 |
Posted: May 07 2010 at 22:19 |
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Well it shouldn´t be... Music is freeflowing - meaning that if it is obstructed, forced and made to satisfy a certain kind of rules/standards/anticipations - it has lost the only thing that separates it from mediocrity and stale bread. I agree that it´s easier to play in a grungeband technically speaking, and that prog demands far more from the musician, but then again if you aren´t connecting with the audience - breaking through the invisible boundaries of the stage and touching people on some sort of emotional level, it doesn´t matter how well you are trained or how smooth you play your scales - you will still end up as the misunderstood musician with no crowd and no money... Sorry if this sounds like an attack on the previous post, but that is not what I mean to express - by no means. The post simply struck a chord within me relating to a lot of current music discussions at my university, and I kind of ran with it  |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: May 07 2010 at 22:24 |
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This is a good point. I have to confess very few prog rock bands touch me on the same level as my favourite pop/rock artists as in rock and pop both included, not pop-rock the genre. It is not immediate enough and not often are the rewards of persevering the same as it has been with my favourite jazz or classical compositions. It's somewhere in the middle. Which is fine with me, because I have 'acquired the taste' for prog so it's not very difficult for me to get to like it anyway but I can definitely see why the skill involved alone would not get more people into prog. And, as I have already mentioned before in this thread, by that token, the skills of great jazz musicians would be more than that of many prog musicians so it's not like I should mandatorily head to prog if I want to hear skilled musicians perform technically demanding music. |
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23098 |
Posted: May 07 2010 at 22:52 |
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I´ll second that. - If you are in the mood for technical astonishment and out of this world instrumentation - whilst still having that special something that grabs you - you need not look further than jazz. Putting Herbie Hancock - Sextant on right now. It´s 6 o´ clock in the morning in Copenhagen and right smack in the middle of the city - in between giant walls of concrete - thousands of cars - people standing on the street corner yelling things they aren´t able to remember tomorrow - the only thing I can hear besides my music, is the overwhelming fuga-like explosion of birdsong. Brilliant |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: May 07 2010 at 22:57 |
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 I haven't yet started exploring his albums but this performance which I linked in another thread yesterday is a good incentive to. Edited by rogerthat - May 07 2010 at 23:03 |
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23098 |
Posted: May 07 2010 at 23:28 |
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To be honest - I like most of his output. If you are into funky hypnotic jazz with an edge, you should definitely go for Headhunters or Man Child. If your tastes waver more towards the freeform and wild spectrum of things, you can´t go wrong with either Crossings or Sextant, where he includes electronics as a rhythmic pulsating spice to the mix. His early albums are on the other hand a beautiful testimony of what a piano can sound like without tricks and distortion - especially Maiden Voyage gets the juices flowing. |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: May 07 2010 at 23:47 |
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Thanks a lot, I will get started. Hancock came over around three years back. I didn't know even what little I know about him now, so I gave him a miss. Really regretting it now.  |
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 905 |
Posted: May 08 2010 at 13:55 |
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Pfft, you're talking about sweeping generalizations and then you make one like this, which is the kind of genre bias that I've been discussiing on other forums which has caused such a stir.
To answer your question, no. Many of the most elitist prog fans aren't any different from the worst indie snobs. They are both very biased against anything outside of their niche little movement and the only difference is that the worst prog fans discrimate against music that is simpler and less technical, while indie fans are pretty much the opposite.
Nonetheless both extremes pretty much get off on how "anti-mainstream" they are, they get off on their pseudo intellectual bullcrap and discriminate against what they consider music for "dumb" people, thus when reviewing a piece of music from a genre that is already made out to be pure evil in their minds, there's no way they're gonna judge it fairly.
As for your comment about indie music, it's not any less of a generalization than the kinda bile critics spew out regarding prog rock. Indie much like prog is very diverse and impossible to define in just a few words, it's only a genre in terms of it's ideals, not in terms of an overall sound as there really isn't one, I'd go as far to say it's even broader than prog.
First off this description "It's just a bunch of artists taking pop songs and adding in odd melodies, cluster harmonies in the vocals, or slightly unusual instrumentation" is so ridiculously vague that it could be used to describe any form of rock music that takes pop conventions and expands on them, which is what The Beatles did and basically what most 70s prog bands did in the long run, if bands like Yes, VDGG and ELP were SO inaccessible why did they enjoy so much mainstream success in their time? Seriouslly, if people don't hear the obvious pop influence in prog rock then there is no hope.
Indie shares many of the same exact ideals as prog, only it's from a more miminalistic perspective. That's the big difference, but they're both about making progressive music, just with different approaches.
It's true that there are cliches with indie as with any musical movement and thus there are very derivative bands, but that's obviously true for prog as well. You can't deny that there are very original indie bands out there spanning many different musical styles and influences. Though by nature, nothing can be 100% original as everything has influences.
These bands may be significantly less skilled and more simplistic in structure, but that doesn't make a band less creative or less artistically credible. The Beatles make simple pop songs and Dream Theater make super complex songs in crazy time, it's still The Beatles who are more creative in the end. Edited by boo boo - May 08 2010 at 14:16 |
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 905 |
Posted: May 10 2010 at 08:55 |
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Well I'm sorry for going off topic but I think it's healthy to talk about other forms of music, but before I go back ON topic I want to address a few things.
I think it's wrong to state that turntables are not a musical instrument, any device that produces sounds that can be used in a music context is essentially a musical instrument even if it's taking samples of previously recorded music.
With the best hip hop (which is not MC Hammer simply taking the bassline to Rick James' Super Freak and rapping over it) as well as the best of any genre (electronic and so on) that relies on samples, samples aren't used as a crutch for creativity so much as to take an old sound and use it in a way that hasn't been thought of before, making something old out of the new. It's the same concept as collage art, only musically.
In rock music, bands borrow licks all the time, but there's only so many licks one can do with a pentatonic solo, it's not so much that the musicians lack creativity so much as the limitations of their abillities and everyone has limitations.
Blues and folk artists "sampled" each other all the time, and that kind of thing wasn't shunned upon at all, because musical ideas were considered public domain, something that can be taken and reused over and over again. The idea is to take something familiar and put it in a new context. A lot of the best art has done this, taking familiar images or sounds and distorted them. I think it was Picasso who said "Good artists borrow, great artists steal" but yeah.
Turntables were first used in hip hop primarly out of convenience, a lot of young kids developed the technique of rapping and were very talented at it, and because they couldn't play or afford musical instruments (as rap music has it's origins in poor urban communities like Harlem), they used turntables (which were cheap) and this lead to the use of samples and scratching to create beats. Back then it was out of necessity but it became the tradmark sound of the culture and eventually DJs became instrumentalists in their own right. A DJ is a one man band, I have some friends who are DJs themselves and trust me it's not as easy as you think. It requires one hell of an ear and to rap over any given sample requires flow and a sense of rhythm and timing.
Also this is just a useless piece of trivia but the first known artists to use samples are actually listed on this website, if you can believe that.
The first known example of a sample can be found on The Residents' controversial pop culture assault album Third Reich n' Roll, which samples Papa's Gotta Brand New Bag by James Brown, who is not only the first artist to be sampled, he's the most sampled artist ever. I think that's just a coincidence though, I wouldn't consider The Residents hip hop revolutionaries or anything. There are other prog artists who "sampled" so to speak. Zappa, King Crimson and ELP quoting classical music, Yes playing the Bonanza theme. And so on.
Also, I don't think anyone has ever claimed that rapping is singing, since by my definition singing is using vocals as a melodic device and rapping uses vocals as a rhythmic device, though hip hop isn't the first music to do this, rhtyhmic vocals go back to various kinds of folk music. Even if it's not singing, it's still a musical technique.
I said I don't get it, I never said that "there's no way someone could like this more than this", I'm just saying I'm clueless about the appeal of one over the other. I'm not saying my opinion is the only right one.
And that being said, I don't think Tormato is THAT bad at all, it has at least 3 great songs (it should have been an EP), that are brought down by very weak ones. I just don't quite get how anyone can say it's an objectively more cohesive album than 90125 other than that they hate that record as a whole not because of genuinely weak songwriting but because of the style it's in.
Granted I'm sure people like you think the songwriting is indeed very weak on that record, but I don't agree.
Basically I was just surprised that you like any pop music at all.
I understand that taste is subjective. But I'd like to point over to the fact that artists listed under "prog related" and "proto prog" rarely get more than a 4 star rating. Take the fact that only around 5 albums listed under "prog related" or "proto prog" have an overall score of 5 stars talied from the votes of at least more than 30 voters. Compare that to the well over 30 symphonic prog albums that have 5 star ratings from an average score of over 30 votes. I don't think that's a coincidence.
Perhaps I'm wrong to say it's a bias, it's really just a preference and it shouldn't be a surprise that most people here prefer symphonic rock over other kinds of rock music. But this does mean that rock albums that aren't particularly 'prog" won't get the same amount of praise. Meaning that albums that don't fall enough into the prog formula is inevitably gonna be treated with less admiration than albums that do.
But what I was mainly talking about is the pretense that this site is objective and no one can be truly objective, but I hear that word thrown around a lot and if people think Image and Words is objectively a 5 while Hunky Dory is objectively a 4. Well yeah that does annoy me a bit. I can't lie.
Geez, didn't think you would get offended over a comment I didn't attend at all to be taken this seriously.
It's a joke, not a funny one really but that's all it is. I guess it would have been easier if I just said "well I agree with you that it's a great album" as that's really all I meant. That and I'm surprised that I agree with you on anything. Granted I don't mean to say you're "bad" just because I dont agree with you much, obviously what you seem to interpret that comment as saying.
You're taking a pretty harmless statement and getting way too worked up over it. Not the first time you have done this
That's kinda different from what I'm talking about here. I'm not talking about the fact that people prefer prog over other genres, this being a prog site, OF COURSE that's gonna be the case. What bothers me and what you don't get is that very often there's a pseudo intellectual attitude from some people that irritates me, the idea that prog rock is intellectually more advanced than everything else, I get that vibe from more reviews on this site than I can count and yes I read reviews from this site a lot. The kinda smug attitude I'm talking about isn't exclusive to prog fans. I'd go as far to say that classical music fans are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY worse. But it's still rather ignorant behavior, no matter who it is.
I can respect the tastes, I'm talking more about the attitude.
And I don't care if you like rap or not, THAT isn't the issue. The issue I have with people is when they deny that genres they don't like have just as most credibility as everything else.
It's not really something I'm accusing YOU of in particular. But I have read my share of reviews that just reek of that kind of elitism. Edited by boo boo - May 11 2010 at 06:02 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: May 10 2010 at 12:23 |
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Well, even when it's not the main issue, I'll make a short comment. One thing is sampling and another totally different is covering, in sampling you play in a reproducing instrument the music and performance of another artist without adding anything of you except maybe the speed and the added rhythm. Covers or playing parts of another musician is different, the new artist PERFORMS the music with his own band and instruments, that's different for me. Now, the reference of Picasso is interesting but that's different, you can borrow ideas, but you can't make a copy of a Velazquez (Sorry Goya mention was a stupid lapsus) painting and say it's art, you can take pieces of a well known painting USE YOUR OWN HAND and create another work,,,But for this you require to know painting, not just use a Xerox machine Velazquez Las Meninas
 La Perla (Las Meninas (Salvador Dali)
 As you see Dali PAINTED A FRAGMENT OF VELAZQUEZ WORK WITH HIS HAND and added something different to make a new work. This is equivalent to ELP performing a different version of Pictures at an Exhibition, but making a photoshop work of las Meninas and adding the same pearl, is worth nothing, because the art work is in the new painting and the techniques used by Dali to paint a fragment of Velazquez masterpiece. This second photo is the equivalent to making a cover, and an artistic work Sampling would be like:
 (Taken from Musica Progresiva.Org)
Yes, it's nice, I would have a poster, but it's just a Photoshop work of many covers done by real artists, it's worth very little...Like sampling.
But it's my opinion only.
Granted that most people on this site consider it inferior, because the album average is 2.77 and Tormato is slightly higher (2.92). But honestly, I don't believe one is much worst than the other, I don't matter if it's Prog or POP or a hybrid (That's my opinion of 90125), both are bad IMHO, only that Tormato is worst 1.5 stars and 90125 is worth 1 star FOR ME. But I completely understand why somebody may like one more than the other, because taste has no parameters.
This proves you hardly ever visit this forum, I'm a huge fan of a lot of Pop, Rock, Jazz, etc bands, but I know the difference between Pop and Prog. Many people suggested the addition of Meat Loaf, I'm a hardcore fan of his music and Jim Steinman's compositions, but I voted against Meat Loaf's addition to PA, not because I don't like him, because as I stated before I love his music, but because he's not Prog and doesn't belong here. And yes, you said you couldn't understand how somebody likes Tormato more than 90125...That's elitism IMO
If you had taken the time to read the guidelines, you wouldn't had asked this question:
5 stars = Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music.
A Prog Related album is not Prog by definition of the sie, so it's clear for anybody that a non Prog album van't be masterpiece of Prog.................Simple logic.
Please boo boo, this is a Prog site and a non Prog album can't be a masterpiece of Progressive Rock, it's absurd by definition is like saying that a Heavy Metal album can be a masterpiece of Pop, it's impossible, because we are talking about two different species. Now, when you take the time to write a review, you can praise the album, as I did with Who's Next:
But when I rate it I say:
In other words, I accept it is a masterpiece, but should had never been added to Prog Archives, because they are the kings of Classic Rock, probably the N° 1 band in Rock, but they are not Prog, and for that reason Who's Next can't be a masterpiece of Progressive Rock. neither an " Excellent addition to any Prog rock music collection" (4 stars), so my only option was 3 stars, even when I like it more than 90% of the albums I have, Prog or not.
No review can be 100% objective, because you rate basing your opinion in performance, quality of the music and your taste, and taste is subjective.
When people try to add an album with arguments like "It's great music", I always respond that Progressive Rock is not an award, there's good, average and terrible Prog as there is great, average and terrible Pop, you chose which one suits your taste more, that's all.
And BTW: Don't you believe that there's arrogance in Pop, Rock, Metal, AOR, or whatever when they believe their favorite band is the best of the world?
And I see that all the time, but nobody calls them arrogant.
Yes, but that's expected in a Prog site.
If you go to a Madonna site, you will probably read that she's the Queen of Pop and that Lady Ga Ga is crap, or if you go to a Gangsta Rap site wou will read about the Mother Fu**er mediocre who coipied them.
People tend to believe they listen the best music in the world, we know it's not truth, because the concept of best in the word is inaccurate when talking about arts, but we all accept it as normal.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 10 2010 at 16:09 |
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 905 |
Posted: May 10 2010 at 13:15 |
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I think that's a misguided generalization and that's not really at all what sampling is. It isn't copying the original song unless it was just a song being played all the way without anything beind added to it.
But instead DJs take old sounds, CHANGE them and them put them in a completely new context. Very often samples are altered in some way, the tempo is made slower or faster, sounds are distorted using various kinds of effects, scratching is used, and they are often paired with other samples to create a brand new harmonic marriage of sounds, A DJ does not simply take a bunch of random vinyl records and mixing them together and see what what happens, a good DJ has to be a real audiophile, he has to listen to a lot of music and find sounds from completely different records of completely different genres of music and find a way to mix them together. And finding a way to sample Uriah Heep and Bob Marley on the same song and getting it to FIT is not easy.
Again it's not all that different from Duchamp or Dali taking familiar images and distorting them to create something different.
Saying you don't understand the appeal of something is not elitism.
Saying there's NO WAY it can have appeal to anyone of above average intelligence is, and that's not what I'm saying. I already admit to liking half of Tormato at least.
What then is the point of including albums by The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, The Who, David Bowie, The Doors and Black Sabbath on this website? Absolutely no one considers them progressive rock.
And also you're kinda proving my point, albums are not being rated by how good they are so much by how "prog" they are or whatever. And thus Beatles albums get knocked down to 4 because they have the horrible misfortune of not being prog.
So what's the point of rating non prog albums on this site in the first place?
And by your definition you cant give prog related albums 4 stars either because that implies that it's "essential to any prog collection".
Wow, as long as I have been here I haven't done a single review. But I do hope to start contributing them soon.
Biased genre clinging fans annoy me in general, not at all limited to prog fans. Indie fans can be absolutely terrible and very often they are. But elitist classical music fans are the absolute worst.
The difference is people don't review prog albums on Madonna and Gangster Rap sites, here we have a lot of non prog material being added to the archives and bombarded with reviews that whine ad nauseum about how it isn't prog and thus great albums are bogged down several points for not fitting with the genre.
I'm not suggesting PA gets rid of the prog related section though, there are some artists who I am very glad are mentioned (though I think they are more than prog related) but I hope the people who add artists to the archive don't get too carried away and start adding, I dunno.... Madonna and gangster rap? Edited by boo boo - May 10 2010 at 13:22 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: May 10 2010 at 16:02 |
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I absolutely disagree, the sampler places fragmens:
By another artist......they can mix whatever pieces they want, change the speed, add rhythm patterns, and whatever....But he's not performing a simple note or creating a single chord, he's making some sort of arrangements on other people's work A MUSICIAN who adapts Mussorgsky, Beethoven or Simon &Garfunkel
Saying this is the same than sampling, would be like saying that this works are the same; Dali PAINTED a fragment of Velazquez masterpiece, he created a new vision that didn't existed already, and he dared to add something different, that's art and it's worth countless millions.
Is exactly as artistic as:
Yes, the guy that did this Photoshop work, changed the context of every cover art, placing all of them as part of Tales Cover Art, but he has not created a thing, everything he added already existed and created by a real artist.
This could be worth US$ 5.00 or US$ 10.00 if made a poster
You can't compare
Saying you don't understand Tormato is OK, I don't understand Lark's Tongues in Aspic, but saying "I don't understand how somebody can like Lark's Tongues in Aspic" would be elitism, because I would be placing my taste over the taste of others.
This would be offensive not only elitist
Prog Related was created by M@X due to the repeated requests of adding some bands that despite not being Prog, have some relation with Prog.
But the rules are clear, the albums by this bands don't enter to the top 100 list, and believe me, the Adms take a whole lot of time to decide which band should be added, and still people request more Prog Related bands than any genre.
This is a Prog site, we need Prog rules and we have to give priority to Prog Rock, we don't say X is better than Y, we say X is Prog and Y is not.
Give the visitor an idea of bands that despite not being Prog, influenced, were influenced and are reconized as related with Prog.
This can be debated, because it's essential for a Prog Collector ,to have albums related, even if not fully Prog.
You only understand a genre completely if you know something about everything that surrounds it.
Then you will probably understand things that are a mystery for you today and stop ranting for everything.
And Jazz fans, and Rap fans who think that what we listen is "old dudes music", and Pop fans like C. Bottomley from VH1 who said that ABBA is essential but Kansasa was a bunch of ignorants who need to discover a fifth note.
You can find arogan people everywhere.
All the bands here except a couple of conflictive bands, have relation with Progressive Rock in one form or another, despite I'm a purist and believe only 100% Prog bands should be here, I admit that Prog Related became an excellent tool to understand the Prog movement and it's influences.
And you should know that very few of the bands suggested are added, the Adm Team does an excellent work controllng this category.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 10 2010 at 16:11 |
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omardiyejon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 14 2010 Location: Turkey Status: Offline Points: 177 |
Posted: May 10 2010 at 16:54 |
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well at least for me this is true, i am a total elitist when it comes to music or more generally arts. And i am not ashamed of it
 i dont know much of any other prog lovers, so i can not make generalization about this fact.
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 905 |
Posted: May 10 2010 at 17:16 |
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Well I can actually. Granted Dali (who may be my favorite artist) did paint that, but he still took a familiar image, COPIED it, but distorted it, that was actually a pretty common thing to do in the Dada and Surrealism movements.
Look, I've heard some stuff by so called DJs who simply take one song and paste it over another, without even mixing them and matching up the key and tempo accordingly. And it sounds awful.
DJing is not just copying and pasting, that would require whatever's being sampled to be virtually unchanged and not even given a new context, and except for the really crappy, lazy stuff, that isn't the case. Tempos and keys are changed, tones are distorted, and DJs don't sample the whole song, they take a fragment of it, and match it with other fragments and gives it a new context.
Also a lot of collage art is very good but you picked a pretty lame photoshoped example. Hip hop doesn't compare to that image at all, it's very hokey and ammateurish, it's painfully obvious and random, instead of finding images that fit together he simply took images from the most famous prog albums and just slapped them on there without any real thought on how these images compliment each other.
A lot of hip hop is very skillful, both the rapping (lyrics, rhythmic flow) and DJing (piecing sounds together and arranging the right tone and mood, providing a solid rhythm that compliments the rap) requires skill, and I ask anyone who considers hip hop a talentless genre to give rapping or DJing a try if they think it's so easy. Personally I don't care if the DJ didn't play the actual instruments on the sample, he's still the one who has to take that sound and put it in a new composition.
Finding the right sample to suit a composition and finding the right samples to mix together to create a memorable NEW beat or melody takes talent. I just wish you could admit that. All music is essentially taking different sounds and putting them together, even if every sound is made by the musician, it isn't entirely original as every idea comes from somewhere. Sampling isn't a popular musical practice just because of conveneience, but also for what it symbolizes, reinvention. Talking something old and reworking it. Musical recycling.
Another comparison I could make is music concrete, a far less accessible genre, but like hip hop it's based around a collage of sounds that the arranger didn't make himself. And if you want to go even further, it's not the musician that makes the sounds coming out of an instrument, the instrument produces the sound, the musician is simply using that sound and making something out of it, a composition.
It's one thing to use one sample, a lot of DJs take MANY simples and mix them together, sometimes they are recognisable other times they are not. But taking all these samples and finding a way for them to work together in a singular composition still requires talent just like it requires talent to make a great painting out of the various colors on a pallete. It just happens that a DJ's pallete is his record collection.
And again not all hip hop is just rapping over a sample that's repeated over and over, granted there are examples where that's the case, the worst of the mainstream stuff. Still, judging modern rap music based on what's played on the radio is like judging modern rock music by what's on the radio. You can't judge such a huge genre when looking through such a narrow scope. One may assume that all modern rock bands sound like Nickelback and Hinder because that's what the radio DJ seems to think, but do a little research and you'll know that's not the case.
Anyway, I want to keep this short so I won't address all of your last post, I will say you clarified a few things for me so it's not worth going on about.
Oh VH1, whatever you do, don't get me started on that worthless toilet clogged with pop culture poo. It's not even the reality shows that bother me the most, rather it's all those pointless list shows and what not that mostly serve as an excuse for unfunny comedians to mug up the scenery. It's rather revealing that VH1 did collaborations with Blender (their printed equivalent), you know, the magazine who called Peter Gabriel one of the worst lyricists of all time while putting people like Ashley Simpson on their cover. Thank god almighty that magazine folded, what a useless waste of paper.
Oh sorry, I'm ranting. Yeah, ABBA sucks.
Well, I think Jon Anderson for example is more than just "prog related" and is more deserving of a section like crossover prog or what not. But that's just me.
Overall, debating with you certainly isn't boring. But I'm kinda wore out for the moment, you can keep this argument going but I might be a little slower to respond. Edited by boo boo - May 11 2010 at 06:09 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16474 |
Posted: May 10 2010 at 17:20 |
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Hi,
You know what is saddest in this thread?
We haven't really helped each other clear up the elitism idea ... it's always "I'm right and you're wrong", and everyone has an opinion.
In essence, it's very zen, we just don't accept it. We're all around the same tree but since we can not be in each other's shoes, we're always next to someone else, what we see is NOT the same thing ... even though there is only one TREE!
So, all you guys ... if you are all planning on helping "prog" or "progressive" put its name in the books, at least have some respect for each other's opinions and be more helpful in making sure that we can come up with a concensus instead of just jibberish by people being upset and disappointed that all we can do is disagree.
We're really showing how good and intelligent we are.
Please. Make prog as good as you want it to be. And that includes your friends here!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Elitism in Prog?
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Stonebolt wrote: