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SteveG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2019 at 11:45
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Regarding your earlier post, Steve, one should not dismiss the idea that people may have some common sense. If someone is reading a review of a folk album, and despises everything folk, even if someone says something like "Highly recommended to Prog fans" shame on him/her for buying the album as a fan of particular types of Prog and a loather of other types and being disappointed. I have come across people who seemed to genuinely insist that no true Prog fan will not like a particular piece of music (which is the no true Scotsman fallacy). I've argued that the ratings descriptions would be better if changed to something more precise. Instead of, say, "five stars: Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music", something more like" 5 Stars: a masterpiece, according to my tastes, of music of its ilk", perhaps even if its style is sh*t, and one likes the taste of it. But I am in all probability being too pedantic.

One can bring objective evaluation into a review, but appreciation is so subjective. I'd rather write reviews without having to rate it, or make the ratings explicitly subjective. 5 Stars = I Adore It.

I most like to read good and insightful descriptions of music, which includes describing the styles, mentioning other music/albums that relate to it, some historical nuggets based on one's research/ knowledge, and a bit of humour can be nice for enjoyabaility when it comes to reading such things. With an accurate description and reference points, I can often tell whether I will like an album, and I don't then need people to tell me that I should like it, or even if they like it.

Regarding TCat's comment about professional reviewers, I wonder how many who write reviews here have turned it into more than a hobby? For a while I was getting paid to write film reviews for a local newspaper, not that I did enough to make a living out of it, and I had some conflict due to my own arrogance. It as never a career, and I never ddid it enough or for long enough to have considered myself a professional film reviewer/ critic. At the first website I was a member of, I was hired as a web-writer due to my posts, didn't last that long and the production company was bought out. I haven't done anything much since that I thought might lead to work on-line. I would like to think some of the reviewers at this site were able to derive income from writing reviews and turn that hobby into a career (even if it was from creating their own websites which they would then derive income from).

If you have a passion for writing reviews of good-for-you and bad-for-you albums, and an income outside of it in a job that one is satisfied with, then perhaps one wouldn't care if one is, or ever becomes, a professional reviewer or not. Of course that depends on the individual. It does sometimes stagger me when it comes to the amount of work and time that people are willing to put into income generating sites with no remuneration.

I never enjoyed writing reviews much any more than I enjoyed writing essays, I used to like to write forms of creative writing, but the challenge as well as the results ultimately can be rewarding. Just the act of writing can help improve one's mind. I prefer discussion, although I find writing a rather clunky means of communication, so is oral communication, but generally I'm fine with good old-fashioned telepathy, though I'm more adept at more limited mind-reading. I know what you're thinking even if you don't, and if you think otherwise, you're wrong. ;)
I hear what you're saying. We're stuck with the parameters we've been dealt i.e. 5 stars = masterpiece instead of 5 stars = I adore it. But being stuck in this rut is not a good reason to ignore these parameters now as it does a disservice to past reviews that adhered to them. In other words bombarding reviews now with 5 stars does 2 things. 1) It's like the boy crying wolf. When the real masterwork appears it will be ignored as just another in the pile and 2) the oversaturation of 5 star reviews dilutes the worth of past 5 star masterworks, as if they too are just another of a longer line leading to the pile. There is no easy way to get around this, imo, overrating reviews is just wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2019 at 12:24

I don't see a problem with  reviewers giving their favourite albums the full five stars, because ultimately, the high ratings are balanced out by the lower ratings.  For every album on ProgArchives there's a ratings overview. For instance, on the first album I ever reviewed on Prog Archives, "Lemmings" (1970) by Bachdenkel, these are the overall combined ratings and reviews:- 3.44 | 67 ratings | 9 reviews | 30% 5 stars. I think these overall ratings are the most helpful of all in deciding whether an album is worth listening to or not.



Edited by Psychedelic Paul - October 29 2019 at 12:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2019 at 13:07
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:



Regarding TCat's comment about professional reviewers, I wonder how many who write reviews here have turned it into more than a hobby? For a while I was getting paid to write film reviews for a local newspaper, not that I did enough to make a living out of it, and I had some conflict due to my own arrogance. It as never a career, and I never ddid it enough or for long enough to have considered myself a professional film reviewer/ critic.
 
I could be wrong, but I think most of the reviewers here, myself included, are amateurs.  None of us get paid to write reviews for this site, at least that I know of.  In my case, I do it because I enjoy doing it, because I love music, and because I have a good amount of education and experience in it, so I feel like I can back up some of the reasons why I like or dislike something (in other words, defend my position).  I enjoy it and consider it a hobby, not a profession.  I use the word professional so as to illustrate what an actual professional reviewer would do. 
 
But there are also times, when reading other's reviews, that it will shed light on certain things I didn't think of before, or I will understand what makes a certain kind of music or album appealing to someone, and that will sometimes make me reconsider my own ideas about an album.  I enjoy reading what others have to say. 
 
But, I digress.  I think it makes sense that since this site distinguishes certain people as a Prog Reviewer (even though everyone is invited to write a review that can be defended), that they (a Prog Reviewer)should write well rounded reviews, have a basis to back them up, and be able to take time to listen to music they don't like and review it with a musician's and a reviewer's mentality, being able to defend why they gave it a certain rating.  Designated prog reviewer's ratings have more of a weight to them in the album's overall score for the site and it also is highlighted on the main page of the album, so at least if you are designated as a prog reviewer for PA, then you should be expected to write an effective review with enough evidence to back it up. 
 
However, those regular members that aren't designated as a "Prog Reviewer" that want to do a review are free to do so.  There should be no rules as to whether they have to listen to music they hate, unless they want to prove themselves and become a designated "Prog Reviewer".  The one thing that they should do is make it as credible and well-written as possible.  Of course, PA admins have every right at the same time, to reject the review, encourage better review writing if needed by "coaching" questionable reviewers, or discuss the character of reviews written by undesignated reviewers.  If a member is consistent in writing great and credible reviews, then the admins can invite her or him to become a "Prog Reviewer". 
 
The words "I love this album!" are fine, but not by themselves.  Tell us why you love it, and why you think it deserves a high rating other than "because you love it".  That is how you will get credibility as a reviewer.


Edited by TCat - October 29 2019 at 13:12

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2019 at 13:36
^^ TCat, That's an excellent review of what it takes to be a fully-fledged Prog Reviewer Thumbs Up - something that I could never aspire to be. Smile

Edited by Psychedelic Paul - October 29 2019 at 13:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2019 at 13:59
^ I understood what you meant, T Cat, but I've sometimes wondered if any here might have turned it into a career. It just reflects on some of my regrets. I've seen very successful professional reviewers (mostly in film) who, according to my subjective evaluation and standards, are terrible. I don't have enough music studies under my belt to feel comfortable writing music reviews. It's rather strange that I even found myself at a music for so long. I've listened to a great deal of music, and love music, but there are other areas where I would feel more adept when it comes to deep discussions. But then my wife likes to say that I'm happy to share my thoughts on anything, even if I know next to nothing about it. I'm very far from a music academic. I can at least read sheet music and play a few instruments not very well, and I do have some sense of what is well-written when it comes to reading music reviews.

What reviews I've written for the site are abject crap, with whimsical sentences like "I recommend this for those who enjoy diversity in their music, and are not scared to take an alternative Prog route where the funky disco queen resides ensconced by chrome monks in her bizarre disco-ball palace".

I do like insightful reviews, and have read a few that have made me re-appraise something, see it in a new light, help to put it in some context of which I hadn't yet thought.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2019 at 14:13
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ I understood what you meant, T Cat, but I've sometimes wondered if any here might have turned it into a career. It just reflects on some of my regrets. I've seen very successful professional reviewers (mostly in film) who, according to my subjective evaluation and standards, are terrible. I don't have enough music studies under my belt to feel comfortable writing music reviews. It's rather strange that I even found myself at a music for so long. I've listened to a great deal of music, and love music, but there are other areas where I would feel more adept when it comes to deep discussions. But then my wife likes to say that I'm happy to share my thoughts on anything, even if I know next to nothing about it. I'm very far from a music academic. I can at least read sheet music and play a few instruments not very well, and I do have some sense of what is well-written when it comes to reading music reviews.

What reviews I've written for the site are abject crap, with whimsical sentences like "I recommend this for those who enjoy diversity in their music, and are not scared to take an alternative Prog route where the funky disco queen resides ensconced by chrome monks in her bizarre disco-ball palace".

I do like insightful reviews, and have read a few that have made me re-appraise something, see it in a new light, help to put it in some context of which I hadn't yet thought.
 
Have you watched Perpetual Grace Ltd. yet?
 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2019 at 14:29
^ No, not yet, as I haven't found it available to me on the services I subscribe to (my cable channels, Netflix, and Amazon Prime Video). I could get a 7 day free trial to EPIX, and after that it would be 6 dollars per month through Amazon.

I have hardly been watching any shows of late. The last thing I finished was American Gods, before that Good Omens and The Boys, and still have to finish Preacher, and started on Carnival Row.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2019 at 14:39
^Carnival Row is good, its a bit dialogue heavy, but that's okay.  I think you would love Perpetual Grace.  It is just .... so.... odd for lack of a better word, but in a good and very funny way.  Just don't take it too seriously.  And the soundtrack is pretty cool too, most of it created by the band "The Jones Sisters", who aren't really sisters at all.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2019 at 14:50
^ I can say with a huge amount of confidence that I indeed will love Perpetual Grace Ltd. Great cast, love the setting, like the music, the trailer is terrific. When I have time, it's something I'd like to binge (especially while I'm waiting for a series four of Fargo).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2019 at 14:58
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


"I recommend this for those who enjoy diversity in their music, and are not scared to take an alternative Prog route where the funky disco queen resides ensconced by chrome monks in her bizarre disco-ball palace".

.
If I read a totally original and intriguing album review like that, I would just HAVE to check the album out to find out more. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2019 at 15:01
^ It certainly would help to entice one if you like disco, and I know you do.

Whether you would actually like the music, I do not know:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM7a8x5br8E

Edited by Logan - October 29 2019 at 15:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2019 at 15:35
[QUOTE=Logan]^ It certainly would help to entice one if you like disco, and I know you do.

Whether you would actually like the music, I do not know:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM7a8x5br8E[/QUOTE]
 
I listened to the Chrome Hoof video in the link, although I'm sorry to say it didn't appeal to me at all, but at least I gave it a try. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dopeydoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2019 at 16:53
I rate my albums on a 10 scale
5 stars is 9/10 or 10/10
I have rated more than 2100 albums/DVDs
I have rated 19 albums/DVDs 10/10
and about 50 9/10
So overall around 3% 5 stars (and I only rate albums that I own, so almost no 1 or 2 stars rating)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2019 at 04:04
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I don't see a problem with  reviewers giving their favourite albums the full five stars, because ultimately, the high ratings are balanced out by the lower ratings.  For every album on ProgArchives there's a ratings overview. For instance, on the first album I ever reviewed on Prog Archives, "Lemmings" (1970) by Bachdenkel, these are the overall combined ratings and reviews:- 3.44 | 67 ratings | 9 reviews | 30% 5 stars. I think these overall ratings are the most helpful of all in deciding whether an album is worth listening to or not.

Confused This only works if people review the albums they don't like along with the one's they do. Remember, one person's masterpiece is another's misery. Otherwise there is no subjective balance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2019 at 04:31
Originally posted by TCat TCat wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:



Regarding TCat's comment about professional reviewers, I wonder how many who write reviews here have turned it into more than a hobby? For a while I was getting paid to write film reviews for a local newspaper, not that I did enough to make a living out of it, and I had some conflict due to my own arrogance. It as never a career, and I never ddid it enough or for long enough to have considered myself a professional film reviewer/ critic.
 
I could be wrong, but I think most of the reviewers here, myself included, are amateurs.  None of us get paid to write reviews for this site, at least that I know of.  In my case, I do it because I enjoy doing it, because I love music, and because I have a good amount of education and experience in it, so I feel like I can back up some of the reasons why I like or dislike something (in other words, defend my position).  I enjoy it and consider it a hobby, not a profession.  I use the word professional so as to illustrate what an actual professional reviewer would do. 
 
But there are also times, when reading other's reviews, that it will shed light on certain things I didn't think of before, or I will understand what makes a certain kind of music or album appealing to someone, and that will sometimes make me reconsider my own ideas about an album.  I enjoy reading what others have to say. 
 
But, I digress.  I think it makes sense that since this site distinguishes certain people as a Prog Reviewer (even though everyone is invited to write a review that can be defended), that they (a Prog Reviewer)should write well rounded reviews, have a basis to back them up, and be able to take time to listen to music they don't like and review it with a musician's and a reviewer's mentality, being able to defend why they gave it a certain rating.  Designated prog reviewer's ratings have more of a weight to them in the album's overall score for the site and it also is highlighted on the main page of the album, so at least if you are designated as a prog reviewer for PA, then you should be expected to write an effective review with enough evidence to back it up. 
 
However, those regular members that aren't designated as a "Prog Reviewer" that want to do a review are free to do so.  There should be no rules as to whether they have to listen to music they hate, unless they want to prove themselves and become a designated "Prog Reviewer".  The one thing that they should do is make it as credible and well-written as possible.  Of course, PA admins have every right at the same time, to reject the review, encourage better review writing if needed by "coaching" questionable reviewers, or discuss the character of reviews written by undesignated reviewers.  If a member is consistent in writing great and credible reviews, then the admins can invite her or him to become a "Prog Reviewer". 
 
The words "I love this album!" are fine, but not by themselves.  Tell us why you love it, and why you think it deserves a high rating other than "because you love it".  That is how you will get credibility as a reviewer.
To get to the heart of my complaint, it's aimed directly at the Prog Reviewer and not the PA member writing reviews because of the preponderance of the weighted average of the Prog Reviewer's rating that carries over that of a member's review. Something like an average of 5 to 1. Or more. That's why I'm particularly incensed when I see a Prog Reviewer constantly cranking out 5 star after 5 star ratings.
As I stated to Paul in an earlier post, I have no qualms with members only reviewing the albums they like. This is supposed to be fun and if it really pains them to do so, it defeats the purpose of the exercise. Also that their reviews carry much less weight in the average of the ratings. And that you can easily spot the w**ker from the wunderkind.  

Edited by SteveG - October 30 2019 at 04:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2019 at 05:25
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ It certainly would help to entice one if you like disco, and I know you do.

Whether you would actually like the music, I do not know:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM7a8x5br8E

Interestingly Chrome Hoof have reformed to play a festival next year. Love their stuff and I hate disco.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2019 at 05:32
Just for the record, I hate overrated reviews and disco.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2019 at 06:15
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

...
And I disagree.  Since you do get the ARTIST, you should record your opinion, however contrary.  And this comes from a fan of The Dreaming album.  I really dislike the way a positivity circle jerk is encouraged in music reviewing.  No, we should welcome contrary opinions too, as long as the review doesn't simply bash the genre itself.  I don't think not enjoying a particular album necessarily means you don't 'get it'.  Sometimes, albums just are bad.
...

I did not specifically say that I would not write a "bad" review ... I tend to save those comments for the threads that end up on that album or sometimes, about that artist and their efforts.

In my case, with more than 500 film reviews (foreign!!!! just like the music!), there are many things that are not exactly great, but I will understate that softly ... again ... you do not wish to take people away from their own learning and decision as to what is right or wrong, or good or bad. 

But the issue here, is not if something is good or bad ... it is that some "fans" think that every review that does not hiss something or other is bad ... and that's not fair ... I make fun of Metallica, but I don't go around saying they are a bad band ... obviously they are not ... it's just their material doesn't do a whole lot for me, even if so many teenagers 20 years ago thought it was GOD! 

AND ... it is that "time element" that I tend to write the reviews for ... to ensure that you have something to look at and to look for ... as an example, trying to get people to understand and appreciate some of the idiosyncrasies in "Brazil", or some films, so that the experience of sitting there and ... wow ... this is a weird film ... doesn't take over, at which point the appreciation for the art itself falls down and dies in that person! SAME WITH MUSIC!

It's OK to state that it is not your preference ... and that you think that the styles are a bit mixed too much making it confusing for your experience in listening to the music ... but to state that the album is bad because of that is not fair to the artist! 

AGAIN, and you are one of the guns here in PA ... why are you helping PA? Because you believe in the music, obviously, but some of it is not your cup of tea ... let it go ... talk about something else! Doesn't make Kate Bush any less of an artist ... and you just another reviewer like me! 

And in the end, that's the big difference ... you and I talk about it and disagree and the artist says ... I'm the one creating the thought and the music ... sorry ... if you don't like it, but this is me, and you are telling me to go get another set of pants and shoes ... I like the red shoes! Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2019 at 06:22
Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

Give more weight to people who write reviews rather than just clicking on a rating.
 
Actually, perhaps ironically and based on what has already been said in this thread, an argument can be made that one should give less weight to people who write reviews and more weight to those who just clicked on a rating. This is because reviews are biased towards higher ratings due to the tendency to only write reviews for albums that are liked, in contrast to ratings only, which due to the ease of clicking on a rating, is more likely to produced a balanced average.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2019 at 06:41
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

Give more weight to people who write reviews rather than just clicking on a rating.
 
Actually, perhaps ironically and based on what has already been said in this thread, an argument can be made that one should give less weight to people who write reviews and more weight to those who just clicked on a rating. This is because reviews are biased towards higher ratings due to the tendency to only write reviews for albums that are liked, in contrast to ratings only, which due to the ease of clicking on a rating, is more likely to produced a balanced average.
 
 
 
 
Ironically, you're right! Lamp
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