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Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
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Points: 66061
Posted: September 29 2018 at 08:34
My previous comments on Gorsuch were strictly slanderous speculation. Sort of stereotyping him based on the "alleged" behavior of Kavanaugh. I have no clue if they knew each other or not back then. I know that they clerked together for Kennedy but that was years later. Other than his obvious conservative political leaning and that he went to the same high school as Kavanaugh I truly know absolutely nothing about him.
The sad reality is that our country is deeply divided and probably has been since the very beginning. Hell, society has probably been deeply divided since the days of Adam and Eve. After all, Cain and Abel couldn't see eye to eye. I think that what makes it seem most volatile is that rather than a 70/30 or 60/40 split we have been looking at a 51/49 split over the last couple of decades and the minority parties have been seething against the majority parties rather than working together for the best of the country...which ironically enough is in theory what both parties want although ideologically different ways of going about doing it. I do fear that there will be another civil war during my lifetime and these kind of cantankerous events are just another nail in that coffin.
Joined: October 02 2005
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Posted: September 29 2018 at 09:00
we had some discussion many pages back Scott comparing these days to the Vietnam era and our internal divisions. I think this one more broad and far more dangerous than that ever was which was a small segment of society rebelling. Here we are pretty much divided down the center and extends well past any central theme.
A civil war? No, really just a waiting game, the long game in political terms for the Republican Party to die off as it has shown zero ability to change or willlingness to move left and the changes in this country will doom it if it doesn't, or simply waits too long to moderate and yes.. move left which is what I said earlier is exactly why it won't. Trump's victory was a mirage that even though it won a battle, it is a war it is getting dangerously closing to irrevocably losing.
Take this whole Kavanaugh sh*t show. Does it really matter if he elevated .... yes and no... yes in terms of being a very visable stain on the last remaining noble fixture of our government. Congress having well been soiled by itself and Trump making a mockery of the office of President.
However we all know how ... to be blunt.. death comes to us all.... if this energizes Democrats to retake teh Senate.. well.. Trump will never get another choice for the SCOTUS. Revenge will be sweet and the Democrats will not pass on that, nor will their supporters let them. And if Trump is gone in 2 more years as most believe he will be... it could be another 10 years before the Repubicans get another pick and how quickly that 'solid' conservative majority can evaporate.
The Amerian in me wants Kavanaugh gone
the politician is me sees his elevation as a political win for the Democrats ... making an already rabid and extremely anger base of supporters more so... AND driving moderates into the arms of the party...likely enhancing the chances of taking the Senate and likely having years of control over any future vacancies.
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Joined: April 11 2014
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Points: 20532
Posted: September 29 2018 at 09:13
^ There are many possible Court rulings like Roe v Wade that could be reversed with a few more Trump appointees and a clamp down on many civil liberties. But f**k, if they want to tap the phone of a 67 year old blind guy, well let 'em.
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Posted: September 29 2018 at 09:19
what can be reversed my friend.. can be easily re-reversed. Politics in my mind Steve is all about the long game, not the short game. We have about 20 years to get through before the cultural and demographic changes we all know (even Republicans) are coming and will doom that party unless it moderates.
as I noted earlier in a thread... I got caught at a stop light on the way home by a schoolbus and got a wild hair and started counting... a whole busload of kids... 1... yes... 1 was white. Do you think the Republican party and its policies will resonate with them. They will be of voting age in 2 decades and the Repubican party will be dead meat... nationally a dead party existing.. if it hasn't been replaced by a centrist coalition party as a regional rump party. Putting senators and reps in from the south and midwest.. but having zero power at the national level. ie.. death as a party in our 2 party system.
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Joined: May 22 2007
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Points: 66061
Posted: September 29 2018 at 09:26
My personal problem is that as a moderate I do not like the direction that the Democratic party is moving either. You just can't give everybody free everything and pay for it by taxing the hell out of those "that have". As a tax professional, I can tell you that it is absolutely ridiculous how much taxes some of my clients are already paying. And yes, that means that they are also making a lot of money but there is something wrong about penalizing people who work hard (or luckily enough invest hard) to make what they make so that those who aren't willing/aren't capable of working hard (or lucky enough to invest hard) can have everything for free. As a Democrat, I do have sympathy for those that aren't capable of working hard or investing hard and I do believe in helping those that have not so that they can try and have but all of this has to have a proper balance. From a societal social standpoint I am pretty much lock and step with the Democrats, and this is the main reason that I consider myself to be a Democrat. I am not a religious person. I truly believe that religious people mean well but I have a real problem with people who are true a****les that hide behind their religious facades. I am all for people living their lives by way of their religious beliefs but they need to let others live their lives however they see fit. And that is where I strongly depart from the Republicans.
I do think that you are somewhat delusional to think that the Republican party is dying off. Granted, I live in Macomb County...the land of the Reagan Democrats who overwhelming voted for Donald J. Trump in 2016 and from my perspective the Republican ideology is just growing stronger in this area. All that you have to do is read on-line comment boards to see that the angry Republicans are still out there. Not sure how many of these folks truly believe the sh*t that they spew and how many are paid Russian operatives but I really don't think that it is dying off like you think that it is.
Joined: April 11 2014
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Posted: September 29 2018 at 09:29
micky wrote:
what can be reversed my friend.. can be easily re-reversed. Politics in my mind Steve is all about the long game, not the short game. We have about 20 years to get through before the cultural and demographic changes we all know (even Republicans) are coming and will doom that party unless it moderates.
as I noted earlier in a thread... I got caught at a stop light on the way home by a schoolbus and got a wild hair and started counting... a whole busload of kids... 1... yes... 1 was white. Do you think the Republican party and its policies will resonate with them. They will be of voting age in 2 decades and the Repubican party will be dead meat... nationally a dead party existing.. if it hasn't been replaced by a centrist coalition party as a regional rump party. Putting senators and reps in from the south and midwest.. but having zero power at the national level. ie.. death as a party in our 2 party system.
I hear what you are saying micky, but unless people become immortal, the short game will always be as important as the long game. Starving people can't wait 20 years for assistance.
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Posted: September 29 2018 at 09:30
the numbers do not lie Scott.. within the next decades whites become a minority in this country
and if the Republicans alienate them as completely as they did the blacks. And that is why Trump's win has been seen as such as disaster for the party.
they are finished. and who really thinks they will.. or even can.. for teh first Republican leader to call for the party to move left will be crucified and his cushy job and career over.. and if this Kavanaugh sh*t show has shown us anything.. it is the complete lack of principal and forward thinking within that party.
Edited by micky - September 29 2018 at 09:33
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Joined: April 11 2014
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Posted: September 29 2018 at 09:31
rushfan4 wrote:
I do think that you are somewhat delusional to think that the Republican party is dying off. Granted, I live in Macomb County...the land of the Reagan Democrats who overwhelming voted for Donald J. Trump in 2016 and from my perspective the Republican ideology is just growing stronger in this area. All that you have to do is read on-line comment boards to see that the angry Republicans are still out there. Not sure how many of these folks truly believe the sh*t that they spew and how many are paid Russian operatives but I really don't think that it is dying off like you think that it is.
I always think the GOP are dying off until I visit the mid west and realize that the sh*t show will go on for ages!
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Posted: September 29 2018 at 09:38
SteveG wrote:
micky wrote:
what can be reversed my friend.. can be easily re-reversed. Politics in my mind Steve is all about the long game, not the short game. We have about 20 years to get through before the cultural and demographic changes we all know (even Republicans) are coming and will doom that party unless it moderates.
as I noted earlier in a thread... I got caught at a stop light on the way home by a schoolbus and got a wild hair and started counting... a whole busload of kids... 1... yes... 1 was white. Do you think the Republican party and its policies will resonate with them. They will be of voting age in 2 decades and the Repubican party will be dead meat... nationally a dead party existing.. if it hasn't been replaced by a centrist coalition party as a regional rump party. Putting senators and reps in from the south and midwest.. but having zero power at the national level. ie.. death as a party in our 2 party system.
I hear what you are saying micky, but unless people become immortal, the short game will always be as important as the long game. Starving people can't wait 20 years for assistance.
well Steve.... what can one do about it.. like the whole Obamacare thing. If the very people who need the help the most continue to support the party that cares the least for them..
as I noted earlier in the thread with hard numbers and statisitics.. the most well off and best educated areas in this country voted for Clinton.. those that weren't. voted Trump
what the hell can one do.. perhaps Americans need to start having their rights taken away before they wake up and start THINKING before they vote.
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Joined: April 11 2014
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Posted: September 29 2018 at 09:47
Yes, but until many white upwardly mobile types seriously get their privileges checked nothing will change. And there's slim chance of that happening. Unfortunately.
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Joined: May 22 2007
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Posted: September 29 2018 at 09:52
I honestly think that we do need a third party that covers the center thinking. I may be wrong but I think that there are a lot of people who think similarly to me out there who feel that neither party represents my best interests. Admittedly, I don't know all of the third parties that are out there, but the ones that I am familiar with seem to be on the extreme fringes of society as either way to the left or way to the right.
Maybe the Republican party is dying on the east and west coasts, but I think that it is strong as ever in the midwest and the South. In regards to the blacks, I think that many have reached the conclusion that the Democrats really aren't there to help them either. Maybe it is just smoke and mirrors, but it does seem as though with the economy going as well as it is (I can't say if it is in spite of or because of Trump) things are somewhat better off. In Detroit, Dan Gilbert and Mike Ilitch have bought up pretty much every building in downtown Detroit and have made it into an area where people actually want to go to again. This has brought many new jobs into an African American community for those that are willing. It remains to be seen how successful this will be, but there is at least some optimism. Strictly just my narrow world view.
Joined: October 02 2005
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Posted: September 29 2018 at 10:00
and make no mistake.. a reversal of Roe v. Wade would be as much as poltical disaster as Trump's election would be. Oh it may happen.. but just further accelerate the decline of the Republican Party and yes would eventually be reversed.
but what can be done now.. nothing... absolutely nothing except hope this whole Kavanaugh episode blows up and this seat is open come January .. but the chances of that I'm afraid are extremely slim. T
the influence of the Christian right is still powerful among Republicans but much like gay rights and all that stuff.. the tide of public opinion swings strongly against the Republicans on that. If it is revoked... well.. again.. what can one do except say... it is what America got when it lost its collective marbles in voting for Trump. And the Republican Party will likely find out sooner rather than later just how out of touch those bunch of old white MEN on Capital Hill have got with a changing America. Much as I suspect they will be finding out next month in regards to women and how seriously they take having years of sexual misdeeds done upon them and seeing them ignored.
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Joined: April 11 2014
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Posted: September 29 2018 at 10:03
rushfan4 wrote:
I honestly think that we do need a third party that covers the center thinking. I may be wrong but I think that there are a lot of people who think similarly to me out there who feel that neither party represents my best interests. Admittedly, I don't know all of the third parties that are out there, but the ones that I am familiar with seem to be on the extreme fringes of society as either way to the left or way to the right.
Maybe the Republican party is dying on the east and west coasts, but I think that it is strong as ever in the midwest and the South. In regards to the blacks, I think that many have reached the conclusion that the Democrats really aren't there to help them either. Maybe it is just smoke and mirrors, but it does seem as though with the economy going as well as it is (I can't say if it is in spite of or because of Trump) things are somewhat better off. In Detroit, Dan Gilbert and Mike Ilitch have bought up pretty much every building in downtown Detroit and have made it into an area where people actually want to go to again. This has brought many new jobs into an African American community for those that are willing. It remains to be seen how successful this will be, but there is at least some optimism. Strictly just my narrow world view.
Hmm..perhaps you should check out an independent that speaks your language during the next 2020 election cycle. They are not all as socialist as Bernie.
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Joined: May 22 2007
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Posted: September 29 2018 at 10:09
By the way, in Michigan, the Republicans are caught in quite a conundrum. Either vote for a woman, Debbie Stabenow, the incumbent Democrat Senator, or vote for an African American, John James, who somehow won the Republican primary to be the Republican nominee. That has to have a lot of heads exploding right now.
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Posted: September 29 2018 at 10:15
the thing not to forget Steve.. is what exactly those rulings state.
a reversal of these decsions does not suddenly make abortion illegal.. nor gay marriage.. it means the states themselves would decide it.
ie... Democratic voters.. in democratic states... no changes...
as it is the common theme in today's political reality. the ones hurt the most.. are the very people and areas that voted FOR this to happen.
so no.. I am not as concerned for Supreme Court reversals as you might be. Again in the long game they would be restored in time, and in the short term.. well...as many of us know life sucks if you live in red state...
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: September 29 2018 at 10:44
Well, during my visit a few weeks back, I had been to Niagara (US side). In spite of the sizable Indian population there, it voted for Trump in 2016 having voted for a Democrat in every election since 1980 (except the 1984 landslide). And truth be told, I wasn't surprised. Even when I had been there earlier in 2014, I remember feeling this place was kinda depressed (and not at all like what a happy tourist town ought to be). I had been to the Niagara aquarium then and remember feeling the keepers looked sad and unhappy though they tried to put up a cheerful face for us. This time, my hotel was a good mile away from the Falls (in 2014, it was Comfort Pointe almost right next door to the Falls) so I walked around the place more...and saw plenty of decrepit, possibly abandoned, homes. I saw pavements that looked like they hadn't been tended to in a very long time, you know with tufts of uncut grass grown over untidily and all that...very unlike the lush and well maintained environs of Woodridge, IL where I stayed at my aunt's place during the visit and lot more like what I'd expect to find back home in India. We're used to years and years of misgovernance by our phenomenally corrupt politicians but I can understand Americans getting angry about it and making a possibly bad choice. After all, your economy worked for you for the longest time until it no longer did...and maybe the jolt is still working its way through the system.
Bannon dubbed the 2008 meltdown as the seeds of the Trump election. But it was Obama who earned that populist vote, evoking similar anti-establishment sentiments but minus the bigotry and with an overall unifying message, back then. And while the GOP sure did obstruct the hell out of him, he did enjoy control of the Senate from 2008 through to 2014 if I am not mistaken and the House as well for the first couple of years. It wasn't the GOP for instance that stopped Obama's govt from prosecuting HSBC as they rightly should have for funding drug cartels in Mexico. As an outsider, I won't sit in judgment of whether it was stupid to vote Trump or not but all I can say is I don't find the disgruntlement surprising. And based on observing Modi's yuge fanbase here, I bet Trump supporters are gonna dig in for the 'long game'. And the more you try to talk them out of supporting him, the more stubborn they will get. Sadly, the best bet for a scenario where Trump does get voted out of power is the economy going bust. Which is not something to be wished on anyone.
Joined: April 11 2014
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Posted: September 29 2018 at 10:49
^ I'm not sure if that would work either Roger as Trump, the GOP and Fox news would all blame the failed economy on the Dems! And the Trump base will believe it! Sad but funny.
Edited by SteveG - September 29 2018 at 10:50
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Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: September 29 2018 at 10:52
SteveG wrote:
^ I'm not sure if that would work either Roger as Trump, the GOP and Fox news would all blame the failed economy on the Dems! And the Trump base will believe it! Sad but funny.
Well, I think money talks first and foremost at the end of the day and a terrible recession would make people too angry to believe the spin, is what I think. Though you could be right too. This is a new phase in politics, to put it as politely as I can, so there's no saying what happens.
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micky wrote:
