Author |
|
Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
|
Posted: October 20 2014 at 14:19 |
Prog_Traveller wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
SteveG wrote:
King Crimson and then everyone else.
|
Regarding the influence only, and if we have to pick just one band, on the top of that misty and floating Prog mountain, may be the Pink Floyd only. I love all of KC studio albums, and just a couple of PF, but the fact is that the Pink Floyd is the most influential prog band ever. This is a band that everyone knows and that has made the genre great with Dark Side of the Moon, an album that I'm not a fan, but again - the facts... |
Yep. I admit that there isn't always a direct correlation between influence and popularity but most of the time there is a pretty strong one. It's pretty difficult for a lesser known band to be more influential than a really well known band. It can happen but it depends on the band. For example, King Crimson is probably much more influential in prog than Styx, Supertramp or the Moody Blues but part of that is because the last three are only marginally prog. If I threw Rush, Yes or Genesis into the mix that changes things quite a bit and even KC is no match for those bands. |
It really seems to me that when the bands mentioned their influences, among others of the prog legends, the most mentioned band is Pink Floyd.
Edited by Svetonio - October 20 2014 at 14:19
|
|
Prog_Traveller
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
|
Posted: October 20 2014 at 14:18 |
Finally. Ok folks back to the discussion after I made it clear that TFK, SB and Kansas are bigger and more influential in PROG CIRCLES and as prog bands. Tortoise can climb back in to their little post rock shell now. Yay. I win. :)
Edited by Prog_Traveller - October 20 2014 at 14:20
|
|
richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26227
|
Posted: October 20 2014 at 14:18 |
Kati wrote:
richardh wrote:
I am going to group them into four divisions and I've added a couple of bands (ELoy and The Mars Volta) to make the leagues an even number. All bands are ranked equal in their leagues so Yes is not meant to be top and GG not bottom. The leagues represent importance in my mind as well as the bands that I consider to be influential and popular.
YES Genesis Jethro Tull ELP Pink Floyd Rush King Crimson Gentle Giant
Kansas Marillion IQ Dream Theater Moody Blues VDGG Porcupine Tree PFM
UK Spocks Beard Renaissance Focus Anglagard Camel Eloy The Mars Volta
Flower Kings Caravan Nektar Gong Magma Strawbs Transatlantic Banco
|
Wow RichardH! I have heard all the bands above and own most of their music too! yay! Mars Volta is one of the most impressive recent bands at the time that appeared, I am happy to see them on your list too besides Transatlantic and the flower kings too :) hugs |
I can't claim credit for the list unfortunately (see the OP) , I just brought some order to it hopefully.
|
|
Prog_Traveller
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
|
Posted: October 20 2014 at 14:13 |
Well you totally missed the point as well as being out of arguments because I am right and you are wrong.
Edited by Prog_Traveller - October 20 2014 at 14:15
|
|
Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 10065
|
Posted: October 20 2014 at 14:12 |
Prog_Traveller wrote:
Bla, blah blah blah blah. Send me a pm dude. I'm only going to continue this discussion in a pm not on here. |
You're all out of arguments and a PM's not gonna happen.
|
|
|
Prog_Traveller
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
|
Posted: October 20 2014 at 14:11 |
Bla, blah blah blah blah. Send me a pm dude. I'm only going to continue this discussion in a pm not on here. Something tells me you won't.
Edited by Prog_Traveller - October 20 2014 at 14:13
|
|
Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 10065
|
Posted: October 20 2014 at 14:10 |
Prog_Traveller wrote:
Ok. A band can't influence anyone if they don't have a big audience. I thought I made that clear. You can be innovative and experimental until the cows come home but it doesn't mean squat if you very few people hear your music. Again, I'm calling bullsh*t on Tortoise at least as far as progressive rock goes and I'm not going to say it again. Let's not keep spoiling this thread though. If you want to continue to argue about it send me a pm otherwise I'm done with this particular discussion(for good this time). Obviously we won't agree on this so let's just agree to disagree. ;)
|
Continue to argue? This is my first post after I posted my list. But you don't need a big audience to be influential (most artists that has a really big audience aren't influential at all) you just need to have influenced many to create their own stuff. And btw. Tortoise has sold a lot more albums than TFK and SB. I agree that you are wrong and I am right.
|
|
|
Prog_Traveller
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
|
Posted: October 20 2014 at 14:02 |
First off if you want to continue the argument please mention the prog tribute album to Tortoise. I am still waiting for you to tell me about it. You can't because there is none. The Flower Kings do have one therefore the Flower Kings are more influential in prog circles and among prog fans(not to mention they have way more ratings on here than your Tortoise). You don't need to be experimental or super unique to be influential or popular. The Beatles and the Rolling Stones weren't very original sounding when they first started out. In fact they copied and borrowed stuff from blues and r and b guys. Same thing with Led Zeppelin. Look how influential they are! Also, a band can't really influence anyone if they don't have a big audience. People have to hear it first. I thought I made that clear. You can be innovative and experimental until the cows come home but it doesn't mean squat if you very few people hear your music. Again, I'm calling bullsh*t on Tortoise at least as far as progressive rock goes and I'm not going to say it again. Let's not keep spoiling this thread though. If you want to continue to argue about it send me a pm otherwise I'm done with this particular discussion(for good this time). Obviously we won't agree on this so let's just agree to disagree. ;)
Edited by Prog_Traveller - October 20 2014 at 14:10
|
|
Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 10065
|
Posted: October 20 2014 at 11:46 |
Prog_Traveller wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Kraftwerk is one of the most influential bands in the entire history of recorded non classical/jazz music and not even bands like Nektar and Kansas can hope to approach their influence. So to suggest that Translatlantic or Spock's Beard should be ranked higher in influence than Kraftwerk defies logic. I would not claim, as Saperlipopette! did, that bands like Focus or Kansas had no influence of importance on other bands. But it's a no brainer that Kraftwerk's influence exceeds those bands...easily. Er, influencing people to rate bands on a prog website does not amount to influencing musicians to derive ideas from a particular band. What's so groundbreaking about Kansas or Spock's Beard anyway vis-a-vis Kraftwerk? And with orchestras getting too expensive even by the time they recorded their later albums, Renaissance was never going to be a major influence on other bands because that style demanded a climate in which labels were prepared to burn money on prog with scant returns. |
Well for one thing I was talking about prog circles but yeah ok Kraftwerk I get it but I still think there's a ton of bands more influential than them in prog circles including Kansas. To be honest I'd even put Tangerine Dream on the list before Kraftwerk. But no f-ing way is Tortoise more influential than SB, TFK or Kansas in PROG circles. That's just crazy talk. |
You don't seem to grasp the concept of influence. If a band never pioneered or innovated anything in the first place there's very little chance their music will have significant influence on other performers. Tortoise is more influential to other bands than SB, TFK and Kansas combined. But of course if you don't include PA subgenres such as Progressive Electronic or Post Rock in your PROG circle there's not much point in discussing with you. Tons of experimental modern rock bands are in direct depth to Tortoise's works made from the mid-90's -early 00's. (and plenty of them are included on PA). Who are the actual bands and artists inspired by this 1974 debuting prog-related group, or those two backwards looking retroproggers anyway? Can you name ten bands on PA influenced by Kansas? Can you name even a handful inspired by SB and TFK? As Horizon more or less says - its more likely that jus like SB and TFK themselves, most other retroproggers look to the pioneering 70's bands an not their cheap imitations.
|
|
|
Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
|
Posted: October 20 2014 at 02:31 |
richardh wrote:
I am going to group them into four divisions and I've added a couple of bands (ELoy and The Mars Volta) to make the leagues an even number. All bands are ranked equal in their leagues so Yes is not meant to be top and GG not bottom. The leagues represent importance in my mind as well as the bands that I consider to be influential and popular.
YES Genesis Jethro Tull ELP Pink Floyd Rush King Crimson Gentle Giant
Kansas Marillion IQ Dream Theater Moody Blues VDGG Porcupine Tree PFM
UK Spocks Beard Renaissance Focus Anglagard Camel Eloy The Mars Volta
Flower Kings Caravan Nektar Gong Magma Strawbs Transatlantic Banco
|
Wow RichardH! I have heard all the bands above and own most of their music too! yay! Mars Volta is one of the most impressive recent bands at the time that appeared, I am happy to see them on your list too besides Transatlantic and the flower kings too :) hugs
|
|
richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26227
|
Posted: October 20 2014 at 01:11 |
^ interesting that GG were one of the bands that were played a lot on radio. I would have expected them to be in the second list. Vice versa on Mike Oldfield who I would have thought would have been played more ( there was a TB edit especially for radio)
|
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16222
|
Posted: October 19 2014 at 22:33 |
YES Genesis Jethro Tull ELP Pink Floyd Rush King Crimson Kansas Gentle Giant Renaissance Focus
All of these were a HUGE part of the FM radio growth in the West Coast. They were not the only ones, but the longer cuts and the quality of the work, showed off that AM radio was just a teeny boppers' top ten bubble gum music! At the time, FM radio, was the alternative to the commercial top ten.
Gong Magma PFM Banco Amon Duul 2 Can Tangerine Dream Mike Oldfield Van der Graaf Generator/Peter Hammill
These were folks that took music a lot further than was imagined, and for the most part they did not get the audience in radio as the respect that they get today, 40+ years after they first appeared in the scene. Their music was highly developed and well played and was not quite designed for radio play at all, although they did find their way into it on one piece or two.
On the 21st century, things are so different, and the advent of the Internet, has now brought all of these alive, and extended their life an incredible amount of time, and all of them have shown the value of the quality of music they put together regardeless of its definition as progressive or not.
As a sidebar, from 1974 on for over 25 years, a lot of this music was featured, and then some, on Space Pirate Radio by Guy Guden, who remains the one radio jockey that was less afraid of playing things than anyone else out there in the last 45 years!
Edited by moshkito - October 19 2014 at 22:33
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
|
|
Prog_Traveller
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
|
Posted: October 19 2014 at 17:22 |
I guess I don't feel too bad if someone leaves out YES as long as they leave out either ELP or Genesis. :p
|
|
DreamInSong
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 17 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 279
|
Posted: October 19 2014 at 12:39 |
Can only speak toward personal influence... - Pink Floyd
- IQ
- Porcupine Tree
- Van der Graaf Generator
- Marillion
- Dream Theater
- Moody Blues
- Anglagard
- King Crimson
|
|
|
Prog_Traveller
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
|
Posted: October 19 2014 at 02:22 |
Svetonio wrote:
SteveG wrote:
King Crimson and then everyone else.
|
Regarding the influence only, and if we have to pick just one band, on the top of that misty and floating Prog mountain, may be the Pink Floyd only. I love all of KC studio albums, and just a couple of PF, but the fact is that the Pink Floyd is the most influential prog band ever. This is a band that everyone knows and that has made the genre great with Dark Side of the Moon, an album that I'm not a fan, but again - the facts... |
Yep. I admit that there isn't always a direct correlation between influence and popularity but most of the time there is a pretty strong one. It's pretty difficult for a lesser known band to be more influential than a really well known band. It can happen but it depends on the band. For example, King Crimson is probably much more influential in prog than Styx, Supertramp or the Moody Blues but part of that is because the last three are only marginally prog. If I threw Rush, Yes or Genesis into the mix that changes things quite a bit and even KC is no match for those bands.
|
|
rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
|
Posted: October 19 2014 at 02:20 |
I disagree. Especially in prog, where there is no consensus and people let favouritism cloud their opinions on something fairly objective like influence, I prefer to listen for myself and judge whether the band brought something to the table that was later imitated or used for other new ideas from later bands.
|
|
Prog_Traveller
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
|
Posted: October 19 2014 at 02:18 |
^Sorry, I admit I was sort of mixing the two posters together(you and the other guy). You don't have to hear a band though to be aware of their influence. Hearing a band only tells you if you like them or not. ;)
|
|
rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
|
Posted: October 19 2014 at 02:03 |
Prog_Traveller wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Kraftwerk is one of the most influential bands in the entire history of recorded non classical/jazz music and not even bands like Nektar and Kansas can hope to approach their influence. So to suggest that Translatlantic or Spock's Beard should be ranked higher in influence than Kraftwerk defies logic. I would not claim, as Saperlipopette! did, that bands like Focus or Kansas had no influence of importance on other bands. But it's a no brainer that Kraftwerk's influence exceeds those bands...easily. Er, influencing people to rate bands on a prog website does not amount to influencing musicians to derive ideas from a particular band. What's so groundbreaking about Kansas or Spock's Beard anyway vis-a-vis Kraftwerk? And with orchestras getting too expensive even by the time they recorded their later albums, Renaissance was never going to be a major influence on other bands because that style demanded a climate in which labels were prepared to burn money on prog with scant returns. |
Well for one thing I was talking about prog circles but yeah ok Kraftwerk I get it but I still think there's a ton of bands more influential than them in prog circles including Kansas. To be honest I'd even put Tangerine Dream on the list before Kraftwerk. But no f-ing way is Tortoise more influential than SB, TFK or Kansas in PROG circles. That's just crazy talk.
|
Never said Tortoise was more influential than TFK. I haven't heard Tortoise so I would not like to comment.
|
|
Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
|
Posted: October 19 2014 at 01:16 |
SteveG wrote:
King Crimson and then everyone else.
|
Regarding the influence only, and if we have to pick just one band, on the top of that misty and floating Prog mountain, may be the Pink Floyd only. I love all of KC studio albums, and just a couple of PF, but the fact is that the Pink Floyd is the most influential prog band ever. This is a band that everyone knows and that has made the genre great with Dark Side of the Moon, an album that I'm not a fan, but again - the facts...
|
|
cstack3
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6769
|
Posted: October 19 2014 at 00:59 |
SteveG wrote:
King Crimson and then everyone else.
|
After seeing Fripp's revised KC this year, I must agree.
|
|
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.