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Prog_Traveller
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
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Posted: October 19 2014 at 00:46 |
rogerthat wrote:
Kraftwerk is one of the most influential bands in the entire history of recorded non classical/jazz music and not even bands like Nektar and Kansas can hope to approach their influence. So to suggest that Translatlantic or Spock's Beard should be ranked higher in influence than Kraftwerk defies logic. I would not claim, as Saperlipopette! did, that bands like Focus or Kansas had no influence of importance on other bands. But it's a no brainer that Kraftwerk's influence exceeds those bands...easily. Er, influencing people to rate bands on a prog website does not amount to influencing musicians to derive ideas from a particular band. What's so groundbreaking about Kansas or Spock's Beard anyway vis-a-vis Kraftwerk? And with orchestras getting too expensive even by the time they recorded their later albums, Renaissance was never going to be a major influence on other bands because that style demanded a climate in which labels were prepared to burn money on prog with scant returns. |
Well for one thing I was talking about prog circles but yeah ok Kraftwerk I get it but I still think there's a ton of bands more influential than them in prog circles including Kansas. To be honest I'd even put Tangerine Dream on the list before Kraftwerk. But no f-ing way is Tortoise more influential than SB, TFK or Kansas in PROG circles. That's just crazy talk.
Edited by Prog_Traveller - October 19 2014 at 00:51
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Prog_Traveller
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
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Posted: October 19 2014 at 00:43 |
Horizons wrote:
Hey hey hey you can't edit your last response without letting me know! I let it end and you wanna bring it back to light?! How dare thee.
In all seriousness i've said everything i've wanted to make a point of, so oh well.
Here it is: I think that the bands you listed are less influential than the ones i've listed, in progressive music and its many incarnations. Oh well. |
Well not really. Not my fault if you left you so soon. Yeah ok and I think the bands I listed are more influential so there. Like I said before agree to disagree on this. Can we put it to rest now? I might throw you a bone though if you agree to replace Tortoise with Sigur Ros. Tortoise doesn't even have any albums with over 70 ratings on here for crying out loud.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 23:49 |
Prog_Traveller wrote:
King Crimson more influential than PF, Yes and Genesis? Uh, no. |
More than PF is doubtful indeed, but they are comfortably more influential than Yes or Genesis. Even Genesis could not have made Trespass without faithfully emulating the ideas of ITCOTCK. Unless, that is, you want to count the pop albums in which case Genesis was more influential than KC or Yes.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 23:46 |
Kraftwerk is one of the most influential bands in the entire history of recorded non classical/jazz music and not even bands like Nektar and Kansas can hope to approach their influence. So to suggest that Translatlantic or Spock's Beard should be ranked higher in influence than Kraftwerk defies logic. I would not claim, as Saperlipopette! did, that bands like Focus or Kansas had no influence of importance on other bands. But it's a no brainer that Kraftwerk's influence exceeds those bands...easily. Er, influencing people to rate bands on a prog website does not amount to influencing musicians to derive ideas from a particular band. What's so groundbreaking about Kansas or Spock's Beard anyway vis-a-vis Kraftwerk? And with orchestras getting too expensive even by the time they recorded their later albums, Renaissance was never going to be a major influence on other bands because that style demanded a climate in which labels were prepared to burn money on prog with scant returns.
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Horizons
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 20 2011
Location: Somewhere Else
Status: Offline
Points: 16952
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 23:20 |
Hey hey hey you can't edit your last response without letting me know! I let it end and you wanna bring it back to light?! How dare thee.
In all seriousness i've said everything i've wanted to make a point of, so oh well.
Here it is: I think that the bands you listed are less influential than the ones i've listed, in progressive music and its many incarnations. Oh well.
Edited by Horizons - October 18 2014 at 23:33
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Prog_Traveller
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 23:10 |
King Crimson more influential than PF, Yes and Genesis? Uh, no.
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20491
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 22:24 |
SteveG wrote:
King Crimson and then everyone else.
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^this...... and even a broken watch is right twice a day.....
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
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Prog_Traveller
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 20:57 |
Btw, Kansas are a 70's band. Oh and how do you know the newer symph bands aren't influenced by second and third wave symph bands? Why assume all of them only are inspired only by the older stuff. I know for a fact that many newer neo and symph bands are influenced by the Flower Kings. Heck there's even a double disc Flower Kings tribute cd out with newer prog bands paying tribute. Do any of your bands have a disc like that with prog bands paying tribute? Also, maybe I could say that the newer avant or left field bands are more influenced by the Residents, Captain Beefheart, Can, Neu, Faust, Henry Cow or whoever more than the newer "out there" bands. Unless you have gone around interviewing tons of bands you can't assume these things. Oh and yes I know Kraftwerk are an older band but I personally don't think they are all that influential in the prog scene(techno and synth rock yes but prog not so much). Let me know when we can just end this already.
Edited by Prog_Traveller - October 18 2014 at 21:05
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Horizons
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Joined: January 20 2011
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 20:49 |
Prog_Traveller wrote:
[Symphonic Prog is more popular - congrats, but that makes 0 sense in an argument about the extent of the bands' influence today. ] No it makes a lot of sense but then again it depends on what your parameters of prog are. Like it or not the classic seventies bands and symph prog in general are always going to be the ones that people get into prog through and the ones that get the most exposure and thus influence the most bands. End of discussion. |
Ok but the modern bands that have the retro sounds aren't the symphonic prog bands that todays bands are going to take influences from - it's the ones from the actual 70's. I can come to an understanding that symphonic is a big magnet to the prog scene, though there are certainly others. If i want to sound like symphonic band with epics and crazy over-the-top musicianship - i feel most bands will look at the giant prog names of the 70's, not the modern ones that emulate them so heavily. That's all i'm saying in this case. Bands in this case will look towards the original not the copies.
Edit: Deal - nice chat. (No sarcasm)
Edited by Horizons - October 18 2014 at 20:51
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Prog_Traveller
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 20:41 |
[I'm sorry but if you think Transatlantic's influence on todays bands is even measurable to Kraftwerk than i can no longer go on. You just don't understand.
Also: Do you know how to actually quote? Or do you just dislike how the formatting is for it? It seems your just copying and pasting which is fine i suppose. Just making sure. ] Yes I do but I find it annoying if I only want to respond to one thing or one at a time. As for Transatlantic it's more about the members of the actual band and where they come from. Actually Spock's Beard is a better example but you seemed to have conveniently forgotten about them. Transatlantic is really more of a project so in that sense I admit they maybe aren't the best example. But yeah lets end this discussion. In fact you can go on and on if you want but I'm done.
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Prog_Traveller
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
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Points: 1474
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 20:37 |
[Symphonic Prog is more popular - congrats, but that makes 0 sense in an argument about the extent of the bands' influence today. ] No it makes a lot of sense but then again it depends on what your parameters of prog are. Like it or not the classic seventies bands and symph prog in general are always going to be the ones that people get into prog through and the ones that get the most exposure and thus influence the most bands. End of discussion.
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Horizons
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Joined: January 20 2011
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Points: 16952
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 20:24 |
I was grouping the bands together - and even though Tortoise have a unique sound they are still influential.
I'm not seeing the correspondence between rating numbers on PA and the group's actual influence. Obviously damn Kansas is going have more attention and fans than a niche (lack of a better word) genre like PR/MR. Symphonic Prog is more popular - congrats, but that makes 0 sense in an argument about the extent of the bands' influence today.
I'm sorry but if you think Transatlantic's influence on todays bands is even measurable to Kraftwerk than i can no longer go on. You just don't understand.
Also: Do you know how to actually quote? Or do you just dislike how the formatting is for it? It seems your just copying and pasting which is fine i suppose. Just making sure.
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Prog_Traveller
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 20:17 |
[I'm sure there are many, many more bands listed on this website influenced by Kraftwerk, Tortoise and GYBE more than Transatlantic, Kansas and Flower Kings. ] Agree to disagree. All you have to do is look up the number of ratings and reviews for each band. There you go. I can guarantee you that TFK and Transatlantic and Kansas have more ratings and reviews than Tortoise or Kraftwerk. Tortoise??? Seriously? If you were going to pick a post rock band I would say Sigur Ros. They are more known and influential than Tortoise. Probably others as well. I don't necessarily consider electronic or post rock to be part of prog(even though this site does so maybe are disagreement rests partly on that).
Edited by Prog_Traveller - October 18 2014 at 20:22
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20522
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 19:31 |
terramystic wrote:
Overall popularity and importance:
Pink Floyd - a band almost anyone knows and respects
Rush - slappin da bass!
Dream Theater - prog metal icon
Importance in prog:
King Crimson - the most influental - ITCOKK ELP - tons of keys, virtuoso playing, classical influence Genesis - influenced a lot of bands/singers Yes - CTTE - just look at the number of ratings and rating value
Pink Floyd - architects of sound, influenced krautrock
Rush - along with KC influenced prog metal Gentle Giant - can be very complex and dissonant, not a popular band but influenced a lot of musicians
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Another one who gets heavy respect!
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20522
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 19:30 |
Saperlipopette! wrote:
I focus more on lasting influence how popular (some of them once were). Removed ten and replaced them with ten others:
King Crimson Pink Floyd KRAFTWERK FRANK ZAPPA Magma Moody Blues Genesis Rush GODSPEED YOU! BLACK EMPEROR Jethro Tull Yes Dream Theater (unfortunately) SOFT MACHINE TANGERINE DREAM HENRY COW TORTOISE MR BUNGLE Gong Van der Graaf Generator ELP Anglagard PFM Camel Marillion Gentle Giant No real influence of importance on other bands: Kansas, Spock's Beard, Flower Kings, Nektar, UK, Strawbs, Renaissance, Transatlantic, , Banco, Focus |
KC on top! Much respect from Me!
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Nogbad_The_Bad
Forum & Site Admin Group
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team
Joined: March 16 2007
Location: Boston
Status: Offline
Points: 20231
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 19:27 |
YES Genesis King Crimson
Pink Floyd Jethro Tull Henry Cow Frank Zappa Magma
Tangerine Dream Mahavishnu Orchestra
Rush CAN Radiohead ELP Caravan
Gentle Giant Van der Graaf Generator Hatfield & The NorthCamel Gong Porcupine Tree
Marillion PFM Kansas Moody Blues That'll do for me
Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - October 18 2014 at 19:29
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/
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Horizons
Collaborator
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Joined: January 20 2011
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Points: 16952
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 19:06 |
Prog_Traveller wrote:
Horizons wrote:
Prog_Traveller wrote:
Kraftwerk, Tortoise and GYBE more influential on other prog bands than the Flower Kings, Kansas, Spock's Beard, Transatlantic, Nektar or Banco. That's a good one.
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Yea groundbreaking electronic artist has influenced not only the entire electronic genre but many other genres - more than Transatlantic, a recent band that sounds like a 70's one. I don't think anyone is thinking "Hey, let's sound like Transatlantic!"
I think you need to learn about electronic and post-rock before you call it a joke that they're more influential than NEO-prog bands.
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I know plenty about electronica and ambient and post rock. I was referring to influence as far as the prog scene goes. I mean this is a prog site and not an electronic site right? |
Yes, and both PR and PE are listed here.
If you're defining Prog as symphonic/neo only, i think if modern bands are looking for influences they will go to Transatlantics' influences and roots rather than the actual band because of the genre they play.
I'm sure there are many, many more bands listed on this website influenced by Kraftwerk, Tortoise and GYBE more than Transatlantic, Kansas and Flower Kings.
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Prog_Traveller
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
Status: Offline
Points: 1474
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 17:16 |
Horizons wrote:
Prog_Traveller wrote:
Kraftwerk, Tortoise and GYBE more influential on other prog bands than the Flower Kings, Kansas, Spock's Beard, Transatlantic, Nektar or Banco. That's a good one.
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Yea groundbreaking electronic artist has influenced not only the entire electronic genre but many other genres - more than Transatlantic, a recent band that sounds like a 70's one. I don't think anyone is thinking "Hey, let's sound like Transatlantic!"
I think you need to learn about electronic and post-rock before you call it a joke that they're more influential than NEO-prog bands.
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I know plenty about electronica and ambient and post rock. I was referring to influence as far as the prog scene goes. I mean this is a prog site and not an electronic site right?
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terramystic
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 776
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 16:35 |
Overall popularity and importance: Pink Floyd - a band almost anyone knows and respects Rush - slappin da bass!
Dream Theater - prog metal icon Importance in prog: King Crimson - the most influental - ITCOKK ELP - tons of keys, virtuoso playing, classical influence Genesis - influenced a lot of bands/singers Yes - CTTE - just look at the number of ratings and rating value
Pink Floyd - architects of sound, influenced krautrock
Rush - along with KC influenced prog metal Gentle Giant - can be very complex and dissonant, not a popular band but influenced a lot of musicians
Edited by terramystic - October 18 2014 at 16:36
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
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Posted: October 18 2014 at 01:59 |
twosteves wrote:
Yes Genesis KC Pink Floyd |
+1
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