Did Genesis release the first neo-prog album? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Catcher10

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Posted: November 30 2014 at 13:28

Neo-prog is one of the most absurd musical genre terms I can think of....There are a few other ones if you look under the definitions page, but for sure this one takes the cake.

Genesis is Genesis music, Marillion is Marillion music with some influence from Genesis....I don't understand what is so complicated about that.

SteveG

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Posted: November 30 2014 at 13:38

^Got me, Jose. I'm not sure why this thread went on for so long, so here goes:

Neo-Prog definition

Neo-Progressive rock (more commonly "Neo-Prog") is a subgenre of Progressive Rock that originally was used to describe artists strongly influenced by the classic symphonic prog bands that flourished during the 1970s. At the beginning of the neo-prog movement, the primary influence was early to mid-70's Genesis. Debate over when Neo-Prog actually came into being often takes place, with some asserting it began with Marillion's Script for a Jester's Tear in 1983. Others contend it began with Twelfth Night at the dawn of the 80s, while some even suggest the popular symphonic prog band Genesis gave rise to Neo-Prog with their 1976 album, A Trick of the Tail.

If one analyses the progressive movement just before 1980, then some albums which heavily influenced the Neo-Prog movement easily come to mind: Steve Hackett - Spectral Mornings, Genesis - Wind & Wuthering, Genesis - And Then There Were Three, Genesis - Seconds Out, Saga - Saga, all the Camel albums between Breathless and The Single Factor included, and some Eloy's albums, especially Silent Cries And Mighty Echoes.

This new form of progressive rock originated in the UK, and is most strongly associated with bands such as Marillion, Pendragon and IQ; and while theatrical stage antics were a part of the live performances of many artists exploring this subset of the progressive rock genre it's the musical elements that are key to the genre; typified by the use of atmospheric guitar and synth soloing with symphonic leanings, with a tendency towards floating synth layers and dreamy soloing. An additional trait is the use of modern synths rather than vintage analogue synths and keyboards. The main reasons for Neo-Progressive artists to be separated from the ones exploring Symphonic Prog in the first place are the above, as well as a heavier emphasis on song-form and melody than some of their earlier symphonic counterparts.

As time went by other artists appeared that also deviated from the norms created by the classic wave of progressive rock artists in the 70's. The late 70's had given the world punk music; the 80's gave the world new wave; and the 90's grunge. These, as well as other forms, had a tremendous amount of influence outside of the progressive rock realm. The advent of the modern synth also inspired artists like Tomita, Vangelis and Kitaro to explore dreamier musical works.

These and other forms of more or less newly made musical genres influenced artists exploring progressive rock as well. Although many artists did so within the framework of 70's progressive rock, more and more artists developed a sound and style so heavily influenced by these more recent musical developments that categorizing them within the existing subgenres of progressive rock became increasingly difficult.

While the Neo-Progressive genre initially consisted of artists exploring a modernized version of Symphonic Prog, these days artists coined as Neo-Progressive cover a multitude of musical expressions, where the common denominator is the inclusion - within a progressive rock framework - of musical elements developed just prior to and after 1980. The Neo-Progressive genre in it's refined form thus covers a vast musical territory, to some extent covering all existing subsets of progressive rock and also searching out towards genres as different as new age on one side and punk and metal on the other. (taken from Prog Archives)

Edited by SteveG - November 30 2014 at 14:42

Logan

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Posted: November 30 2014 at 14:55

^ Quite different from the definition when I registered at Prog Archives ("amel"):

Prog Archives wrote:

Neo Progressive
Neo Progressive definition
The Neo-Progressive subgenre of progressive rock grew out of a movement in the early 1980s by a number of U.K.-based bands that focused on music that was deeper than new wave, both instrumentally and lyrically. The premier band of the genre was Marillion, who went from lengthy club tours to the top of the charts within a few years and dropped from popular favor almost as fast. Neo-Prog bands are generally influenced by early Genesis, Camel, and to a lesser extent, Van der Graf Generator and Pink Floyd. The music holds a much more lush sound than general rock, but lacks the sophistication of truly symphonic progressive bands like Yes or amel. Instrumentally, the bands tend to be characterized by a "noodling" approach that focuses on dynamic solos, and at its best, neo-prog lyrics are deep, insightful, and acerbic. Whether neo-prog is diluted progressive or adventurous pop depends on the point of view of the listener — most progressive rock listeners are likely to find the genre dull and unchallenging, while fans of AOR will find the mix more interesting than most rock bands. Although all of the major bands are still producing albums, the classic era of neo-prog effectively ended when vocalist Fish left Marillion in 1987.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060828214915/http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=18

I look at Neo-Prog as being a movement more than a genre per se.

As others have said, Genesis could not have released the first true Neo-Prog album as thee band was from the classic progressive rock movement, not the "Prog revival" which drew inspiration from Genesis.

I have no problem with the Neo-Prog category, or any others at PA (I'd like more categories).

From http://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Neo-Prog/ :

rateyourmusic wrote:

Also known as: Neo-Progressive Rock
Neo-Prog is a synthesiser-driven style of Progressive Rock that emerged in the early 1980s in the United Kingdom. Fish-era Marillion and IQ are considered to be the defining bands of the genre.

Neo-prog took off in 1983 with bands taking strong influence from the Symphonic Prog sounds of Genesis, Yes and Camel, but replacing the Hammond organ and Mellotron-heavy sounds of symphonic prog with a focus on synthesisers and keyboards. The synthesisers are often the driving force in neo-prog, with the guitar regularly playing high-pitched and atmospheric lines as opposed to the riff-driven tendency of symphonic prog. Genesis' Wind & Wuthering is an influence for the guitars, and is considered by some to be the first neo-prog record. Neo-prog bands also have more Pop-oriented melodies than other forms of progressive rock, while still keeping the complex instrumentation. This saw some significant radio play and fame for some bands, with Marillion charting 11 top 40 singles during the time Fish was their vocalist.

Although the original scene died in the late '80s with Fish leaving Marillion and Peter Nicholls leaving IQ, the genre continued an underground following with bands like Pendragon, Arena and Galahad at the forefront, and creating some smaller scenes, like the '90s Polish scene of Abraxas, Collage and Quidam. Although Marillion moved further away from neo-prog, IQ continued to make albums in the style, and gained a further cult following after Peter Nicholls returned to the band.

Note: Neo-prog is not to be confused with "new prog", a term used for alternative-progressive rock bands such as Muse, Coheed and Cambria and The Dear Hunter.

Released     Artist     Title     Reviews     Ratings     Score
1980     Twelfth Night     Twelfth Night [aka The Electra Tape, Second Tape Album]          8

3.37
1980     Nautilus     Space Storm     1     21

2.89
1981     Twelfth Night     Live at the Target     7     63

3.68
1981     Gizmo     Victims     2     16

2.90
1981     Pallas     Arrive Alive     3     69

3.40
1981     Marillion     Haunters' Having Lots of Fun     1     5

3.71
1981     Arkus     1914     1     27

3.20
1981     Chemical Alice     Curiouser and Curiouser     1     12

3.29
1982     Psopho     Sheer Profundity     1     10

3.18
1982     Differences     The Voyage     4     26

3.13
1982     Third Quadrant     Seeing Yourself As You Really Are     2     14

2.94
1982     Σταμάτης Σπανουδάκης     Κύριε των δυνάμεων     1
1982     Mad Puppet     Masque     2     17

3.44
1982     Step Ahead     Step Ahead     7     55

3.29
1982     Flame Dream     Supervision     1     30

3.02
1982     Twelfth Night     Smiling at Grief     4     38

3.36
1982     Quasar     Fire in the Sky     2     22

3.28
1982     Osiris     Osiris     8     97

3.40
1982     IQ     Seven Stories Into Eight     4     95

3.27
1982     Zarathustra     Also spielt     1     16

3.29
1982     Marillion     Market Square Heroes / Three Boats Down From the Candy     7     113

3.82
1982     Twelfth Night     Fact and Fiction     16     161

3.67
1983     Solstice     The Peace Tape
1983     Marillion     Selling Fish by the Pound Vol.1 & Vol.2

So RYM lists the Twelfth Night [aka The Electra Tape, Second Tape Album] release as the first Neo-Prog album.

Edited by Logan - November 30 2014 at 15:20

verslibre

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Posted: November 30 2014 at 16:14

Logan wrote:

So RYM lists the Twelfth Night [aka The Electra Tape, Second Tape Album] release as the first Neo-Prog album.

Except it's hardly an album: it's a self-released four-song cassette they sold at shows, with two on each side.

Side A

1. The Cunning Man

2. Afghan Red

Side B

1. Abacus

2. Keep The Aspidistra Flying

Live at the Target really is their proper first album. It was issued on vinyl in 1981, and it's entirely instrumental.

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Posted: November 30 2014 at 17:02

verslibre wrote:

Logan wrote:

So RYM lists the Twelfth Night [aka The Electra Tape, Second Tape Album] release as the first Neo-Prog album.

Except it's hardly an album: it's a self-released four-song cassette they sold at shows, with two on each side.

Side A

1. The Cunning Man

2. Afghan Red

Side B

1. Abacus

2. Keep The Aspidistra Flying

Live at the Target really is their proper first album. It was issued on vinyl in 1981, and it's entirely instrumental.

For me the medium, length, method of release and distribution is not that important-- more important would be the qualities of the actual compositions on the "album" (and I wouldn't call it that short a release).

The only composition I've heard off it is the version of the longest listed at the bottom of this post.

The Cunning Man 5:43
Afghan Red 11:23
Abacus 7:20
Keep the Aspidistra Flying 7:35

Edited by Logan - November 30 2014 at 17:03

Catcher10

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Posted: November 30 2014 at 17:50

Logan wrote:

I have no problem with the Neo-Prog category, or any others at PA (I'd like more categories).

OMG...no more categories........although this does apply

Logan

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Posted: November 30 2014 at 18:49

Well, really I'd prefer album tagging similar to progfreak to make searches easier (while still keeping master categories). I'd love to be able to easily search for all albums labelled jazz, psych, and electronic. That would require significant work and new search functions.

Category groupings have made finding music that I will like easier, and also made it easier to avoid some music. Some at PA have said that we should do away with all the categories as it's all music. Yeah, it's all music but categorisation improves an archive and makes research much easier. Imagine going to a rock archive and finding that all the various types of rocks and minerals are dumped in the same box -- sedimentary mixed with igneous etc. Not that you're making that point, so I'll get off my soapstone box.

One category that I'd like is an album-based category (that could be an addition to the Various Artists category) where we could readily include albums deemed prog by artists that are overwhelmingly deemed non-prog, or something like that... For instance, I've wanted an artist called William Sheller added, but mostly for one prog album. He isn't in because of greater discography concerns.

Oh, and of course we should have a Booty Prog category.

Butt I digress.

Edited by Logan - November 30 2014 at 18:50

SteveG

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Posted: December 01 2014 at 09:26

Sorry, but what has all of this discussion to do with the posted question?

I'll state this fact again.

Early neo-prog was based on groups influenced by Genesis, so how can Genesis possibly be considered neo-prog?

This would be akin to asking if the philosophical school of Neo-Platonism was the first school of Platonism when the original school existed 500 years before.

You simply cannot put the cart before the horse no matter how hard some member's try.

Amazing.

Edited by SteveG - December 01 2014 at 10:29

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Logan

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Posted: December 01 2014 at 11:19

Sorry Steve, I thought that that issue had already been sufficiently addressed, and the thread could move on.

As I wrote in my first post in this topic:

As others have said, Genesis could not have released the first true Neo-Prog album as thee band was from the classic progressive rock movement, not the "Prog revival" which drew inspiration from Genesis.

What does the the rest have to do with the topic? Those are asides and digressions. I've never been of the "discussion in threads must strictly adhere to the original topic" camp. Those tend to fizzle out faster than ones where people feel free to let their hair down and associate ideas. With the first forum I used, we didn't quote eachother, and each post responded to the former post in the thread. Personally, I prefer that, as the progression from one post to the next is more natural to me -- like the way that I talk with friends and family in real life.

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Posted: December 01 2014 at 13:29

SteveG wrote:

Sorry, but what has all of this discussion to do with the posted question?

I'll state this fact again.

Early neo-prog was based on groups influenced by Genesis, so how can Genesis possibly be considered neo-prog?

This would be akin to asking if the philosophical school of Neo-Platonism was the first school of Platonism when the original school existed 500 years before.

You simply cannot put the cart before the horse no matter how hard some member's try.

Amazing.

If the question had been posed with quotation marks around 'neo prog' would that have been okay?

If we rule out Genesis can I rule in UK's debut album? That contained many of the elements of 'neo prog' ie pointing towards a new direction yet its not easy to pick up any direct influence in the neo prog scene. If not then they might qualify as a bridge between symph and neo at least.

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Posted: December 01 2014 at 14:55

richardh wrote:

SteveG wrote:

Sorry, but what has all of this discussion to do with the posted question?

I'll state this fact again.

Early neo-prog was based on groups influenced by Genesis, so how can Genesis possibly be considered neo-prog?

This would be akin to asking if the philosophical school of Neo-Platonism was the first school of Platonism when the original school existed 500 years before.

You simply cannot put the cart before the horse no matter how hard some member's try.

Amazing.

If the question had been posed with quotation marks around 'neo prog' would that have been okay?

Which is why imho they should be called 'neo-symphonic prog'.

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Posted: December 01 2014 at 16:43

richardh wrote:

SteveG wrote:

Sorry, but what has all of this discussion to do with the posted question?

I'll state this fact again.

Early neo-prog was based on groups influenced by Genesis, so how can Genesis possibly be considered neo-prog?

This would be akin to asking if the philosophical school of Neo-Platonism was the first school of Platonism when the original school existed 500 years before.

You simply cannot put the cart before the horse no matter how hard some member's try.

Amazing.

If the question had been posed with quotation marks around 'neo prog' would that have been okay?

I can appreciate your intent Richard, but lets be real. A half dozen English bands in the mid eighties were not falling over themselves to produce UK style prog bands. Their fanaticism extended only to Genesis for reasons that are known only to God.

Neo Prog has evolved from that original concept of Genesis worship and has gone on to include a myriad of newer added-on definitions, so that now it could almost be what you want it to be.

In answer to your question, identifying this topic as 'neo prog' would not help as the fault lies long ago with those that conjured up the definitions of Neo Prog by identifying and associating the sub genre with musical groups (nee Genesis) instead of merely saying that it was the revival of a once popular genre.

When the Folk Revival erupted in both the U.S. and the U.K. in the early and mid sixties, the definition of the genre did not specify that all folk artists were trying to resurrect the genre and stating that it's influences were solely that of Woody Guthrie. It was simply folk music that was revived.

Would it have been such a stretch for the eighties prog renaissance to have been simply called The 80's Prog Revival and left at that?

Edited by SteveG - December 01 2014 at 16:44

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Posted: December 01 2014 at 16:44

Bee Gee's rip off? You're nuts, fudgenuts!

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Posted: December 01 2014 at 16:55

richardh wrote:

SteveG wrote:

Sorry, but what has all of this discussion to do with the posted question?

I'll state this fact again.

Early neo-prog was based on groups influenced by Genesis, so how can Genesis possibly be considered neo-prog?

This would be akin to asking if the philosophical school of Neo-Platonism was the first school of Platonism when the original school existed 500 years before.

You simply cannot put the cart before the horse no matter how hard some member's try.

Amazing.

If the question had been posed with quotation marks around 'neo prog' would that have been okay?

U.K. (just the first one) is kind of a unique animal thanks to Holdsworth. It has a symph/jazz split personality. I've never seen it compared or likened to neo-prog.

What about Pallas' Arrive Alive? While it has several incarnations, its earliest issue was 1981.

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SteveG

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Posted: December 01 2014 at 16:56

SteveG wrote:

richardh wrote:

[QUOTE=SteveG] Sorry, but what has all of this discussion to do with the posted question?

I'll state this fact again.

Early neo-prog was based on groups influenced by Genesis, so how can Genesis possibly be considered neo-prog?

This would be akin to asking if the philosophical school of Neo-Platonism was the first school of Platonism when the original school existed 500 years before.

You simply cannot put the cart before the horse no matter how hard some member's try.

Amazing.

If the question had been posed with quotation marks around 'neo prog' would that have been okay?

Neo Prog has evolved from that original concept of Genesis worship and has gone on to include a myriad of newer added-on definitions, so that now it could almost be what you want it to be.

Would it have been such a stretch for the eighties prog renaissance to have been simply called The 80's Prog Revival and left at that?

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Posted: December 01 2014 at 16:57

SteveG wrote:

Would it have been such a stretch for the eighties prog renaissance to have been simply called The 80's Prog Revival and left at that?

I do like that the sound of that. Martin Orford has also argued there is no such thing as Neo-prog, or that if there is, everything from 1980 onward is Neo. Or something like that. I don't recall his exact wording.

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Posted: December 02 2014 at 01:36

verslibre wrote:

richardh wrote:

SteveG wrote:

Sorry, but what has all of this discussion to do with the posted question?

I'll state this fact again.

Early neo-prog was based on groups influenced by Genesis, so how can Genesis possibly be considered neo-prog?

This would be akin to asking if the philosophical school of Neo-Platonism was the first school of Platonism when the original school existed 500 years before.

You simply cannot put the cart before the horse no matter how hard some member's try.

Amazing.

If the question had been posed with quotation marks around 'neo prog' would that have been okay?

U.K. (just the first one) is kind of a unique animal thanks to Holdsworth. It has a symph/jazz split personality. I've never seen it compared or likened to neo-prog.

What about Pallas' Arrive Alive? While it has several incarnations, its earliest issue was 1981.

I'm not saying it has a direct link but I can hear elements of it pushing prog in a new direction and some of those elements such as the atmosphere that Jobson created on a track like Alaska seem relevant to neo prog.

I'm not well up on Pallas or Twelth Night although both were important to the early eighties prog scene.

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Posted: December 02 2014 at 02:08

For what it's worth, I think, having just listened, that Duke, was where this whole proto 'Neo' arrangement came into play......

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Posted: December 02 2014 at 11:51

I feel the absurd need to weigh in here if for no other reason than I'm partially responsible for characterizing bands as 'Neo Prog' or 'not Neo Prog'.

Neo started out as a reference to the 80's revival bands, Marillion, IQ, Pendragon and to a lesser extent Twelfth Night. Initially it was similar to Canterbury in that it was specific to a time and a place. But then it morphed.

Marillion specifically took a drastic turn from the bombastic style of the Fish Era to the sweeping atmoshpere of the Hogarth Era. Pendragon grew into a much heavier sound as they moved forwards, IQ has continued to grow in intensity and production throughout the years. As the three prototypical bands changed their sounds and continued to stay on the edge of technology, the definition of Neo morphed along with the bands.

The main differences between Neo and Symphonic these days is in the instrumentation. While modern Symphonic still has a big focus on traditional instruments and sounds, Neo focuses much more on the progression of technology. In Neo, most of the Melotrons, the organs and the flutes have been replaced by the synth. The 12 strings and accoustic pickings have been mostly been replaced by flanged or delayed guitar effects.

To sum, Neo is very much a subset of the Symphonic genre without the constraints of the traditional instrumentation.

Obviously, this is all subject to opinion, but the first real Neo album was "Script for a Jester's Tear" because that was pretty much the first album that made people start thinking 'whoa, we need a name for this'.

-------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob-------

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Posted: December 02 2014 at 12:15

Aye and that name was Symphonic Progressive Rock - Phase II.....