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Topic ClosedWhat is that to you - coherence?
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Points: 16165 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 10:41

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:


 ...
You are indeed consistent. I don't know who you are addressing, but since your post follows mine, I guess I'll tackle a response. There are some artists who are not at all self reflective, have no idea how they do what they do and don't care. I have no problem with that. There are also some artists who are very self-reflective and deliberate meticulously upon what they do. Would you please quit acting like they don't exist.
...

I'm consistent because I'm a writer. I have over 500 foreign film reviews, over 100 album reviews (won't post most of them here for a reason!), and over 100 concert reviews. Not to mention 4 novels, 3 plays, and 400 poems!

I'm just not into it because I want to show you my brand new gold plated cadillac and my rings on my fingers and the three blonds on my dock!

I'm into it, because ... and I've said it time and again ... it is what I see!

I do not go around saying that what I see is right and you are wrong. I do express, almost as clinically as I can, that this is how I see it ... and I know, from experience of being next to a big time famous writer (my dad), that there are some buffoons out there and some very interesting folks as well. Problem here, is that most folks don't know the difference, and their perspective is not intuitive at all, but almost always related to their friends and the music they know that you can't possibly know or accept that it is good!

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:


...
 It's entirely possible to be self-reflective without losing spontaneity and one's personality.
...

For me that would depend if you are "inside of it" or "outside of it". There is a difference in that reflection. What/results comes from that is not necessarily the same thing, and I would never venture to guess it.

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:


...
I might also add that every post I recall has acknowledged the vagueness of the idea of coherence, so I don't see any artist is being locked down by anything said here and we are certainly not trying to do any such thing in the first place. Personally I find this thread fascinating and enjoy hearing other's thoughts about it.

The only lock down that bothers me, I admit it, is that the tone is always slanted to the top ten stuff, and when someone says something different, it is a problem. The understanding and ability to discuss it (not you or most of us experienced folks here!), comes into play ... specially when they are defining "dark" by an organ that is using the modulating wheel to make the notes and chords sound weird and bizarre, which makes it dark ... which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard! They never even heard E Power Biggs! And creating a name for a style based on an effect is wrong! We need to help put that down. I know that we are in the time of electricity, and the effects are there, and this is the part of hawkwind I love dearly, that most folks go ... it's boring ... because it is repetitive, but at the same time the sound is not ... the sound is ever changing on the effect, to help create a mood, and some folks do not have the patience to close their eyes and follow the mood! So, at least I can say that I'm not immune to the "effects", either, but I think that to label a style off it, is wrong ... we don't label Hawkwind weird because they do Steppenwolf one day and Reefer madness the next and master of the Universe the next! And sometimes it could be said to be the same riff ... !!!

I can trip! I'm a veteran at that! But in many ways, some of the folks here, kids included, they really need to go get stoned! They are not good trippers, when all they can see is thrashing and think that DT is just doing notes! What musician/s would not be intelligent enough to get a better feel for their music as to when they are filling it or doing it? Like Beethoven and Mozart never had "filler" in their music? It distorts the argument and discussion, is the way I see it.  But, you really think that Beethoven and Mozart just thrashed in spots for the heck of it? .... NO! We, and history of music and such do not believe that for 1 second!

(You want to talk about writers using "filler"? Start with Stephen King and harry Potter stuff!)

Edited by moshkito - November 30 2014 at 11:06
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Points: 16165 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 10:48
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Probably, The Beatles White album would never have been accepted in this dane prog age LOL I love that album, except number 9 grrrrrr that track one listen, just a bit and it stays stuck with me for days, arghhh bah! In my head, the voices... number 9, nonstop playing over and over again WinkHug
That did not deter me from thinking you are a very nice, sincere and sweet person at all. Another Hug
 ...
 
Revolution #9 is easy Kati.
 
Grab a portable cassette recorder, turn on the microphone and walk down the street, specially a somewhat busy one.
 
Go home and listen to the 25 or 30 minutes of it!
 
Voila ... a day in the life .... of any street!
 
I think it was the way the Beatles stated that "life" is also an "art" ... and that was something that helped the "progressive" mold a lot, because it took limits out and allowed for more open experimentation and ideas ... and that's a great thing!
 
The White Album is massive that way. Still one of the most progressive albums EVER, when you relate it to the time it came out!
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Points: 20503 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 13:43
Too subjective a question for me, Angelo.
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Points: 12702 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 13:51
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Too subjective a question for me, Angelo.
That, and that Mosh covers incoherence better than anyone.
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Points: 13239 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 15:38
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Too subjective a question for me, Angelo.
That, and that Mosh covers incoherence better than anyone.

Hmmmm... pity. I would've at least hoped that you (Steve) would've tried to give it an objective twist.

And yes, Dark Elf, Pedro does make a good case for incoherence, or maybe even artistic freedom - I largely agree with his statement that artistic freedom should not be limited by the onlooker, or in our case the listener.

That is also pretty much in line with what Evolver wrote:

Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Coherence in an album is entirely subjective to the listener.  The album represents a vision of the artist's work. Sometimes it is one person's vision, sometimes an entire band, sometimes the producer or engineer is part of it as well, and sometimes even the record company executives.
And what sounds cohesive to one listener may be quite the opposite to another.

It is the artist c.s. who decides what ends up on an album, and the fact that they decide what's on the album determines the basic criterion for coherence: if the artist thinks things belong together, they do - don't they? And there I can agree with Raff, who describes pretty much how I look at albums like ITCOTCK, which I mentioned before, but also the Corvus Stone album that triggered this discussion. It does show that indeed there is a lot of subjectivism involved though, given Stereolab's reaction to the same post:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

In my view, eclecticism (i.e. what some people would see as lack of coherence) is definitely a positive in an album, especially when progressive rock/music is concerned. Besides Evolver's excellent reference to ELP, I think of King Crimson's "I Talk to the Wind", whose gentle, almost light-hearted mood contrasts sharply with the intensity of the other tracks, but at the same time complements them and does not feel out of place. There is an indefinable something that makes albums like In the Court of the Crimson King, Selling England by the Pound or Brain Salad Surgery coherent, and much more successful in terms of overall structure than many albums whose coherence is overt.

Originally posted by Stereolab Stereolab wrote:

Eclecticism works, except when it doesn't. For example, I find Poseidon to be deeply flawed in its incoherence. The great tracks are pushed around by oddities that sound nothing like them or each other, and that just don't have any value to me artistically or otherwise. But not to pick on KC, I think they pull off the difficult art of seamless eclecticism well in some of their other albums, and they remain one of my absolute favorite prog bands.
(...cut some stuff here...)

In a different part of the discussion, Gernski and Kati concluded something similar, around Queen, and the Beatles White Album, which also seems to be the opinion of Moogtron III:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

It's a very interesting topic and one for which I don't have really an answer. Practically all Queen albums from Sheer Heart Attack up to Jazz might be considered incoherent in the sense that they contain such a wide variety of stuff. Can you get more different songs mixed together than Sheer Heart Attack, All Dead, Sleeping On the Sidewalk, It's Late, My Melancholy Blues etc? And yet they have never stroke me as incoherent albums and I have never heard them being criticized for that, A Night At The Opera is almost unanimously considered a masterpiece album.
They are 'individual songs' albums, but I wonder if had they put the songs in a different sequence, would they work just the same? Is it simply enough that every song be good on its own? I think that in a 'songs album', deciding the songs order can change the way an album feels.
(...cut Corvus Stone part - continued below...)

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Probably, The Beatles White album would never have been accepted in this dane prog age LOL I love that album, except number 9 grrrrrr that track one listen, just a bit and it stays stuck with me for days, arghhh bah! In my head, the voices... number 9, nonstop playing over and over again(...cut some hugs and other utterances of affection here ;-) ...)

Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:

As for the question of the OP: Funny, I couldn't find an example of an incoherent album. Eclectic, yes, but most most albums that I know (albums that I like, albums that I hate and albums that I'm indifferent to), I experience them still as having one core, a unifying theme.
For me the most incoherent sounding albums are at the same time some of the best loved in the rock world: the Beatles' White Album and Neil Young's Harvest. 

Bottom line: incoherence doesn't play a significant role in my personal musical experience.
Good question for a thread, though, I never was consciously aware of that.make a

All in all, I see that most of us seem to agree that there has to be some form of coherence in an album, but that it has a different meaning for everyone. That makes coherence, just like other quality aspects of a (musical) product, very much a subjective thing, and hard to grasp. Examples mentioned are the atmosphere provided by the tracks, consistency in musical style, consistency in sound or effects, all of which are very much different, but it is the artist who decides what goes together. I can live with that, but it doesn't explain which of these (or other) possible options make people consider the example I started with, Corvus Stone, to be lacking coherence. I'm not sure if we'll ever by able to objectify coherence or its opposite incoherence/eclectisism to the point where we can all judge it equally, although I did challenge SteveG and Dark Elf to give it a shot TongueWink

One thing though, and for that I have to go the Corvus Stone example, is the question brought up by Geriniski.
If an album consists of individual, and very much differing songs, the album can still be considered good and in a way coherent. So what (see quote below) makes the difference between the Queen albums he mentioned (from Sheer Hart Attack up to Jazz) and an album like Corvus Stone II? And what is it that is lacking, if Trademark0's observation made very early on in the discussion is correct?  We should be able to tell, according to HackettFan. Help me out here, because I don't feel anything is lacking here - let's make the example into a vehicle for further discussion. What is the red that is missing (or not) for you here?

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

They are 'individual songs' albums, but I wonder if had they put the songs in a different sequence, would they work just the same? Is it simply enough that every song be good on its own? I think that in a 'songs album', deciding the songs order can change the way an album feels.
On the other hand, coming back to the Corvus Stone albums, every time I listen again to any of them, I can't help a sense of incoherence and lack of collective meaning (sorry Colin!). Why does it happen and not with most Queen albums (for example), do not ask me.

Originally posted by Trademark0 Trademark0 wrote:

After all, you can't tell a painter that his painting is incomplete; but when you compare Corvus Stone II to 70s prog classics you can tell that its lacking something.

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

 
Yes, you can tell a painter that his painting is incomplete. I did a watercolor painting once and made the mistake of showing it off before it was done. It was segmented into three different color schemes. In one of the segments I had orange, blue and green.   People thought it was horrible (orange and blue complement each other, but nothing complemented the green, and green and orange definitely do not work together). Of course I was going for a four way color scheme the whole time. Once I touched up the shadows with a little red to complement the green the reaction to it changed completely.



Edited by Angelo - November 30 2014 at 15:45
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Points: 16165 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 16:29

Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:


...
All in all, I see that most of us seem to agree that there has to be some form of coherence in an album, but that it has a different meaning for everyone. That makes coherence, just like other quality aspects of a (musical) product, very much a subjective thing, and hard to grasp.
...

There is a slight issue here, though ... if the lyrics tell you a story in a conventional way, you think it is immediately a "concept", and you accept that it is coherent. Thus, Thick as a Brick and Passion Play are OK for you, despite the fact that Passion Play has some very vicious lyrics and it is extremelly pointed, and in many ways is way more "coherent" than Thick as a Brick, which is intentionally obscure. And we haven't even considered "Close to the Edge" or "Tales from Topographic Oceans" or "Relayer", where things are even more nebulous and Jon is not saying anything (and rightly so!!!!) to help define the work itself. And of course, the fact that Rick didn't like it, and Bill didn't care for it, and Chris won't play it ... says even more about it all and what they think!

But you can see the respect that Transatlantic has for the piece, and how nicely Jon was flowing with it, which tells you that there is more here, that is VERY COHERENT or these folks might not enjoy or appreciate playing it!

I can't imagine any of those folks playing this if that love and coherency was not there!

Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:


...
Examples mentioned are the atmosphere provided by the tracks, consistency in musical style, consistency in sound or effects, all of which are very much different, but it is the artist who decides what goes together.
...

Yes and no. In my prose and poetry, it is a free form of writing, I can not tell you what I wrote until I read it later ... why? it's a movie in my head and I'm trying to translate those visuals as fast as possible. There is no time to discuss anything else, or make decisions. it is not a "thought process" the way we would interpret it, and the "completeness" of it, is the difference between "vision" and "thought". While this last part might confuse you, it is the biggest truth I have ever found in my own work! One completes itself in its vision, the other throws you off, because there would normally be elements that are not a part of the complete picture, that were added by the "thoughts'. The color spectrum (my only words for it!) of these is wild and all over the place. The color spectrum of the other pieces is very unique, strong and (I call it) SOLID, and very different from the scattered vision.

There ... now you know my "secret". It ain't a secret, but it is dependent on my inner sight ... thus you now know why I tell people off in the division of analog/digital, because it is like saying that one t-shirt makes you and the t-shirt has nothing to do with the work you put together ... except that you wore it one day! It's the person and the inner vision that matters!!!!!! Very important concept!



Edited by moshkito - November 30 2014 at 16:55
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Points: 16165 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 16:34

(sorry ... duplicate)



Edited by moshkito - November 30 2014 at 16:57
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Points: 126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 16:39
Well, got to thank this thread for introducing me to Corvus Stone II... just heard the first three tracks and then immediately bought it. Despite the variations, there is a fundamental togetherness to the music that renders it very coherent to me, at least. I think this is a learned skill for a band, to express a core musical narrative through a variety of musical styles.
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Points: 16165 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 16:59
Originally posted by Stereolab Stereolab wrote:

Well, got to thank this thread for introducing me to Corvus Stone II... just heard the first three tracks and then immediately bought it. Despite the variations, there is a fundamental togetherness to the music that renders it very coherent to me, at least. I think this is a learned skill for a band, to express a core musical narrative through a variety of musical styles.
 
Cool ...
 
I like to be surprised and have no idea what's coming! It makes no difference what it is or isn't musically or any other artistic thought.
 
For me, it is not about it being coherent or not ... for example, I love listening to AMAROK, just as much as i do INCANTATIONS. And one of these is definitly "incoherant"!
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Points: 12702 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 17:15
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Too subjective a question for me, Angelo.
That, and that Mosh covers incoherence better than anyone.

Hmmmm... pity. I would've at least hoped that you (Steve) would've tried to give it an objective twist.

And yes, Dark Elf, Pedro does make a good case for incoherence, or maybe even artistic freedom - I largely agree with his statement that artistic freedom should not be limited by the onlooker, or in our case the listener. 
 
Pedro makes a good case for incoherence? That is an understatement. In fact, you could say that no one but Pedro could make incoherence an art form.
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Points: 16165 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 17:36
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Too subjective a question for me, Angelo.
That, and that Mosh covers incoherence better than anyone.

Hmmmm... pity. I would've at least hoped that you (Steve) would've tried to give it an objective twist.

And yes, Dark Elf, Pedro does make a good case for incoherence, or maybe even artistic freedom - I largely agree with his statement that artistic freedom should not be limited by the onlooker, or in our case the listener. 
 
Pedro makes a good case for incoherence? That is an understatement. In fact, you could say that no one but Pedro could make incoherence an art form.
 
WRONG!!!!!
 
You haven't been listening a whole lot.
 
Faust is a good example.
 
And if you get bored, you need a good session and dose of Robert Wyatt ... and if that's not enough, you really should try Art Bears!
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 18:37
I actually don't know of any prog rock albums, or any albums for that matter, where there is no link between the tracks at all.  Even Mr Bungle tracks have a common theme of chaotic and intentionally jarring juxtapositions.  

What does webster say about incoherent?

1. not able to talk or express yourself in a clear way that can be easily understood

2.not logical or well-organized : not easy to understand

Mosh is right.  In art, to come to either of the above conclusions about a work would be to presume that not only did the artist fail to express himself clearly but you in turn knew exactly what he wanted to say and possibly also how he ought to have said it.  Wink  And that doesn't make sense.  A more honest position is perhaps that a particular album just didn't resonate with you or some tracks in it didn't.  Coherence within a song relates more to thematic unity, yes.  And again I presume most if not all compositions do have it.  If people feel a song is INCOHERENT, what they probably mean is the changes or shifts in the music didn't work for them.  Again, it is probably more honest to simply state the latter.  Most prog rock, especially in the modern day is recorded with a lot of deliberation and calculation and not at all 100% spontaneous.  So to say it is incoherent would be to say a Phd scholar produced a bunch of unintelligible gibberish in his thesis, which we know is very very unlikely to be the case.  Occam's Razor ought to rule out this possibility, but the simplest possible explanation (that the problem is with you and not the artist) is usually rejected in music criticism. Wink


Edited by rogerthat - November 30 2014 at 20:15
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 21:00
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I wonder if they went for the full on snog LOL
 
hahaha! RichardH LOL I bet they did, Gerinski even got a face and hair wash all in one go Big smileHug
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 21:11
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Too subjective a question for me, Angelo.
That, and that Mosh covers incoherence better than anyone.

Hmmmm... pity. I would've at least hoped that you (Steve) would've tried to give it an objective twist.

And yes, Dark Elf, Pedro does make a good case for incoherence, or maybe even artistic freedom - I largely agree with his statement that artistic freedom should not be limited by the onlooker, or in our case the listener. 
 
Pedro makes a good case for incoherence? That is an understatement. In fact, you could say that no one but Pedro could make incoherence an art form.
 
WRONG!!!!!
 
You haven't been listening a whole lot.
 
Faust is a good example.
 
And if you get bored, you need a good session and dose of Robert Wyatt ... and if that's not enough, you really should try Art Bears!
Moshkito writes a whole essay about a topic, his comments are very extensive and long, therefore some might not read it due to being extensive but if one reads what he says it's so good, an intelligent opinion/perspective which makes perfect sense. I can quote many things he said here, very clever and insightful really. xxxx  
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 21:22
When Paul McCartney released WE ALL STAND TOGETHER (THE FROG SONG). Even on youtube I read someone saying that it sounds like a children's song and it's stupid.
In this case McCartney accomplished what he was meant to do, IT IS A CHILDREN'S SONG. I love the bom, bom bom, hurry up song LOL to be honestBig smile
 

Putting down an artist for making a children’s song, this reflects bad on the reviewer . It is reasonable for a reviewer not to like it but to comment on what he thinks what the artist should do is not fine, to think that their opinion should make the musician do what they think it should do, that is wrong, what might happen due to all imposing opinions is the musician not releasing anything else instead.

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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 23:19
Originally posted by Stereolab Stereolab wrote:

Well, got to thank this thread for introducing me to Corvus Stone II... just heard the first three tracks and then immediately bought it. Despite the variations, there is a fundamental togetherness to the music that renders it very coherent to me, at least. I think this is a learned skill for a band, to express a core musical narrative through a variety of musical styles.
Wow! Stereolab! Clap yay bounce, bounce, happy bounce! Hug You wont regret it I think, all tracks are so different, 3 tracks you heard is not enough to describe this album hihihihi this is an album you keep going back to listen and each time you hear something you didn't hear before Wink big hugs Hug You awww Heart
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2014 at 00:14
I dedicate this song to all those who have an opinion what a band should or not sound like Smile
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Points: 13239 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2014 at 01:35
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I wonder if they went for the full on snog LOL
 
hahaha! RichardH LOL I bet they did, Gerinski even got a face and hair wash all in one go Big smileHug

Right... that made me spill my coffee and leave my breakfast. LOL
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Points: 13239 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2014 at 01:38
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:


...
All in all, I see that most of us seem to agree that there has to be some form of coherence in an album, but that it has a different meaning for everyone. That makes coherence, just like other quality aspects of a (musical) product, very much a subjective thing, and hard to grasp.
...

There is a slight issue here, though ... if the lyrics tell you a story in a conventional way, you think it is immediately a "concept", and you accept that it is coherent. Thus, Thick as a Brick and Passion Play are OK for you, despite the fact that Passion Play has some very vicious lyrics and it is extremelly pointed, and in many ways is way more "coherent" than Thick as a Brick, which is intentionally obscure. And we haven't even considered "Close to the Edge" or "Tales from Topographic Oceans" or "Relayer", where things are even more nebulous and Jon is not saying anything (and rightly so!!!!) to help define the work itself. And of course, the fact that Rick didn't like it, and Bill didn't care for it, and Chris won't play it ... says even more about it all and what they think!

But you can see the respect that Transatlantic has for the piece, and how nicely Jon was flowing with it, which tells you that there is more here, that is VERY COHERENT or these folks might not enjoy or appreciate playing it!

I can't imagine any of those folks playing this if that love and coherency was not there!

Hmmm. Nice examples! TAAB's tension between the different parts works for me, but not for others (who only like parts of it). There's something to consider....
ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected]
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