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Topic ClosedRound 1 Rome Bracket: Dream Theater v. Caravan
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Poll Question: Who is your band?
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67 [76.14%]
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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 00:33
I meant subtlety purely from the perspective of how the music is performed rather than emotional/ compositional nuance. Prog rock does involve playing the parts at a range of volumes and a blend of soft/mid/loud rather than a crude whisper to crescendo transition. Metal tends to be loud throughout simply because of how heavy the riffs are.
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Points: 66007 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 05:44
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:


One they suck LOL  Or in more detailed terms is they provide the best example of flash without substance and having multiple great talents who fail to be a real band.  No one doubts the talent, or the desire to be 'prog'. However many doubt the final result was listenable. Why does Opeth not get the same level of hate. That is a band. DT was a mere collection of very talented instrumentalists.


The funny thing about this quote Micky is that it also applies to one of the classic big 7 bands quite well....and that band is ELP, a mere collection of very talented instrumentalists who fail to be a real band.  Isn't that the reason that albums like Works Volume 1 and Volume 2 exist? I would almost think that just for this reason alone, you of all people would actually be a fan of Dream Theater. WinkLOL

Edited by rushfan4 - December 11 2014 at 05:46
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Flight123 View Drop Down
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Points: 1399 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 07:31
No, you can't level that charge at ELP who harnessed their individual talents magnificently.  Of course, cracks would show eventually towards the end of their career but by then they had produced the most stunning and creative fusion rock that has not really been bettered since.  You could not produce the likes of 'Tarkus' or 'Karn Evil 9' without it being a team effort.
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Points: 66007 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 08:10
And I'd argue that you can't produce the likes of 'Metropolis' or 'Octavarium' without it being a team effort.  I'm not sure you point.  Don't get me wrong, I like ELP in whatever their format.  Oddly enough, I've never really gotten into 'Tarkus' all that much though.  It is good but at least to me it is not nearly the best thing that they ever did, which would be 'Karn Evil 9'. 
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Points: 66007 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 08:12
An on-line review of ELP Brain Salad Surgery:

Review Summary: Botchery, pretentiousness, and w**kery are still contained in Brain Salad Surgery, but this is much improved from previous ELP works. Add Karn Evil 9 and Brain Salad Surgery isn’t as bad as it seems.

Sounds exactly how most of you describe Dream Theater.
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Flight123 View Drop Down
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Points: 1399 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 08:59
My point was a response to the description of ELP as a 'mere collection...who fail to be a real band' a statement which I fundamentally disagree with. 

Perhaps I am being unfair on DT on the evidence of one (half) concert...  As for Caravan, love 'em.  I had to wait until 1990 to see them mind but at least the great Jimmy Hastings was with them.
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Points: 66007 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 09:14
Heck. They don't even have a band name.  They are named after three individuals.  That doesn't sound like a real band to me.  It sounds like a law firm  LOL


 
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Points: 4807 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 10:33
[QUOTE=rushfan4] Heck. They don't even have a band name.  They are named after three individuals.  That doesn't sound like a real band to me.  It sounds like a law firm  LOL

And "Rush" sounds like an untimely bout of diarrhea.

Edited by Rednight - December 11 2014 at 10:34
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Flight123 View Drop Down
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Points: 1399 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 10:44
Oh dear.  One thing's for certain, ELP continue to divide opinion across the decades - I was having similar arguments back in the day on the school bus!  On the other hand, when Rush first appeared in the UK, they were not considered prog at all...
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Points: 66007 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 10:49
Aside from my username what does Rush have to do with this discussion?  The comparison is ELP's w**kery and pretentiousness with Dream Theater's w**kery and pretentiousness. 
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 11:18
I am with you there, rushfan, that ELP didn't always live up to their billing.  Genesis worked better as a team and crafted better albums (and that's probably earned me a punch from micky LOL).  I would slot DT as kind of the ELP of the 90s/prog metal LOL with the distinction that ELP's tongue in cheek approach made them more enjoyable for me.  Metal has this peculiar approach of showing off in the most dead serious way and in prog metal's more calculated and calibrated settings (vis a vis 'pure' metal), it stands out more, in a not so good way.
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Points: 3841 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 11:23
Originally posted by Rednight Rednight wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Heck. They don't even have a band name.  They are named after three individuals.  That doesn't sound like a real band to me.  It sounds like a law firm  LOL


And "Rush" sounds like an untimely bout of diarrhea.
 
 
Thank you for that useful and brilliant point, though, and I do admit, I can be a little slow, are you suggesting that Rush, the band, sounds like musical diarrhea and therefore, also sounds like a series of individual musicians rather than a band or are you suggesting that the simple name of the band, Rush, is more likely to invoke images of the ptomane shuffle?  I must be missing the point as the name of the band Emerson, Lake and Palmer (or Powell if you so choose) is in fact three names and was a relevant point to bring up within the context of the current discussion.

Seriously, if this was just a post to show us how witty you are then yay you, You did indeed show up one of our collaborators and we are all in awe of your contribution, you pat yourself on the back and buy yourself a piece of candy on the way home from school because yes, that was indeed, very witty.
-------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob-------

I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms.
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Rednight View Drop Down
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Points: 4807 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 11:57
No, I don't particularly find myself witty - I just don't get ELP haters. I mean, this is a forum for prog lovers, and how can someone hate the classics? And no, I would never insist on "Emerson, Lake, and Powell." A side foray for the band that just didn't work. As for Rush, love a great deal of their music, but was simply commenting on their name. I would hope there was no offense.
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Points: 66007 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 12:24
For the record, I am not an ELP hater.  I like ELP quite a bit, as a matter of fact.  I'm just comparing them to Dream Theater as into the criticisms that are thrown at both bands.
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Flight123 View Drop Down
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Points: 1399 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 13:51
At the end of the day, DT are a pastiche, unlike ELP (although they were preceded by the Nice). 
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Points: 66007 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 14:00
One might say that ELP are a past itch.  Or passe itch if you prefer.  Dream Theater did for metal what the classic bands did for rock.  I suppose that they took 21st Century Schizoid Man and ran with it whilst every other band in between left that alone.  Otherwise I'm not sure what makes them pastiche.  Metal bands like Metallica and Iron Maiden may have been heading in that direction but DT was pretty much the first to take it there or at least to find its way to the public audience.
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Flight123 View Drop Down
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Points: 1399 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 14:13
What I meant by pastiche was imitation rather than anything genuinely innovative.  I spend a lot of time arguing this point about so-called post rock, which is often creative and experimental but doesn't quite fit prog rock cliches (i.e. Tortoise).  The only band still active from the 'classic era' that seems to fit this bill is King Crimson (three drummers - that's prog!Smile)
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Points: 66007 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 14:30
What do you need 3 separate drummers for when you have a drummer that can play as much as 3 drummers?  Wink 


If adding classical to rock music was genuinely innovative aka ELP, why is adding classical music to heavy metal music not genuinely innovative?
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Flight123 View Drop Down
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Points: 1399 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 15:35
That was one aspect of ELP's innovation.  What is innovative is how it is done - I bet DT would be hard pushed to match Ruins's classical medley, and its prog medley for that matter (on 'Pallaschtom')! That IS a band that has been innovative but largely ignored...
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Points: 66007 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 16:29
My comment about the 3 drummers was tongue in cheek, but I couldn't help but revisit Spinal Tap with the amplifier that goes up to 11.  "But my band is better because it has three drummers."  "But our drummer is really good.  Maybe even better than your three".  "Umm.  Three is better than one." 

Or something along those lines.  LOL

I've not heard KC's 3 drummer line-up but I imagine that they do sound really good, so I was just joshing you a bit on that.

In regards to Ruins, I've heard a handful of songs, but not enough to be an expert on them, nor the song that you are referring to. 

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