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Ivan_Melgar_M 
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 Posted: January 07 2015 at 13:42 |
 BarryGlibb wrote:
Bravo! I am with you all the way.
Just having Jethro Toe written in the the topic line says it all with regards to these "boy band" polls. This is disrespectful to a band and their large following here on PA. Some fan"boys" just can't help poo pooing Tull. Bring it on I say! |
Ehhm..Toe has an explanation.
Jethro Tull's first singles were released as Jethro Toe
That's not disrespectful, it's an historical fact.
BarryGlibb wrote:
I could have told you at the start that the 4 finalists would be Genesis, KC, PF and Yes. How interesting...not......it was the same 4 a few years ago or was it only months ago? Seems this type of infantile poll has been done to death over the past few years and I don't know why I bother contributing to them. Next time I am conscientiously objecting and not voting!!!!!! Or voting for Horslips as being the greatest Prog Rock group of all time!!!!! Oh they weren't put up........but in my mind they are/were the best. |
Maybe because for the vast majority of Prog listeners they are the best bands.
I don't like King Crimson except for the debut, but would be absurd from me not to admit they are part of the elite.
BarryGlibb wrote:
Let's have a poll to work out who was the first Celtic Prog Rock band.
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The Strawbs and by far, they started in 1964.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 07 2015 at 13:53
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Walton Street
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Joined: November 24 2014
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Points: 872
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 14:18 |
Genesis has been my favourite band since I was a kid .. always has been always will be .. cant help who I love. But my next 3 are nothing like anyone else's My top 5 are Genesis Strawbs Tangerine Dream 10CC Van Der Graaf Generator Jethro Tull I've explored, appreciated, and own a lot of ELP, YES, KC, they're just nowhere near my favourites. never thought of myself as a fanboy - just a fan
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"I know one thing: that I know nothing"
- SpongeBob Socrates
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micky
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 15:37 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Maybe because for the vast majority of Prog listeners they are the best bands.
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 popular does not equal best. Unless you want to admit that Camel was a great band. Greater than ELP which is bullsh*t and everyone outside of Camel fanboy knows it. Even many Camel fans I suspect know it... however there was no stipulation on how to vote. I didn't ask people to vote on most important... sure didn't ask to vote for favorites. I just told them to vote.. thus people voted as they wished. Some did vote for bands they love.. some were faced with bands they did not like.. and voted based upon the more objective criteria. That was the wildcard to this.. of course we knew who the final 4 would be.. even most of us could have named 7 of the 8 final 8 based on the original draw (Gong being the surprise if you will). One simply can not account for personal tastes.... but it has nothing to do with being best. Otherwise Jethro TOE..  would have never made it out of the first round. They trounced a far superior band whose only negative was they were not English. bah....
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 26171
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 16:16 |
Dellinger wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Dellinger wrote:
Oh well, the thing for me, is that none of those albums is really a 5 star masterpiece. All of them have at least one song that I really dislike. The closest album for me would be Selling England by the Pound, and even that one has Battle of Epping Forest. Also Tresspass is really close, but even though that one doesn't have any song that I really dislike, it doesn't have such highlights on it as the next albums would have. |
Well, it's a matter of opinions.
I don't believe an album has to be perfect to be a masterpiece. It may have 1 or 2 songs that I dislike, but I value many other things
1.- Balance 2.- Transcendence 3.- Lyrics 4.- Performance 5.- Factor X
For me, every Genesis album except SEBTP have a perfect balance. all are transcendental for Prog, all have brilliant lyrics, the performances are impeccable, but overall...The music creates emotions on me.
CTTE is a masterpíece, but doesn't move me in the way Fountain of Salmacis, In the Cage or Can Utilitty move me.
Relayer is a super album, technically impeccable (Moraz is a genius), but leaves me cold in the field of emotion.
Thick as a Brick has a BRILLIANT intro, the lyrics are amazing, but after 10 minutes they start to repeat themselves.
Genesis did well avoiding endless epics, because too much time on your hands lead to repetition, the only real epic (Suppers Ready) is more a collection of different songs united only by a concept and that was brilliant..I love Fountain of Salmacis, and it lasts exactly as much as it should last..The organ intro impresses me because they don't repeat it 10 times in the song.
That's where the greatness of Genesius rests, they did what they needed to do, not more, nobiody tries to be a star, they leave their egos behind and play for the band, to the point that people believed Hackett was just a good guitar player until he left the band and did what he wanted to do.
Genesis was a team, few bands managed this. |
Well yeah, I agree about the opinion that an album doesn't have to be perfect to be a masterpiece. Actually, there are many albums that have one, or perhaps two songs I don't really like so much, but that as a whole I consider masterpieces... but those songs need not to bother me too much at least, nor be too long (such as "Have a Cigar" on Wish you were Here, or "Pigs on the Wing" on Animals... perhaps even "On the Run"... and "Money" on Dark Side of the Moon... or the "solo" songs on Fragile). But unfortunatley those songs I don't like on Genesis are either too long and/or too annoying and end up breaking the flow of otherwise wonderful music. For me a perfect Genesis album would have been "The Knife", "Musical Box", "Supper's Ready", "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight", "Firth of Fifth", "Cinema Show", and perhaps "In the Cage" to throw in something from The Lamb. Also, I might include "One for the Vine", but since that one is after Gabriel left and has a bit of a different feel, I might just not include it along the other ones. |
The only long Genesis song that annoys me is Battle Of Epping Forest. It really does get very annoying very quickly. At least when ELP did Benny The Bouncer they kept it mercifully short (although they still cop way more flak for it).
That is a list of great Genesis songs yet an album with Stagnation , Fountain of Salmacis , Watcher of The Skies ,Can Utilty and The Coastliners plus the last quarter of Lamb could also work just as well for me.
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akamaisondufromage
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 16:24 |
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I do feel that this would have been a much closer contest if Genesis hadn't been up against Jethro Toe but, rather the slightly more popular Jethro Tull had been thrown into the mix! I've never had much time for Toe.
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Help me I'm falling!
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BarryGlibb
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Joined: August 28 2010
Location: Melbourne, Oz
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 16:31 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BarryGlibb wrote:
Bravo! I am with you all the way.
Just having Jethro Toe written in the the topic line says it all with regards to these "boy band" polls. This is disrespectful to a band and their large following here on PA. Some fan"boys" just can't help poo pooing Tull. Bring it on I say! |
Ehhm..Toe has an explanation.
Jethro Tull's first singles were released as Jethro Toe
That's not disrespectful, it's an historical fact.
BarryGlibb wrote:
I could have told you at the start that the 4 finalists would be Genesis, KC, PF and Yes. How interesting...not......it was the same 4 a few years ago or was it only months ago? Seems this type of infantile poll has been done to death over the past few years and I don't know why I bother contributing to them. Next time I am conscientiously objecting and not voting!!!!!! Or voting for Horslips as being the greatest Prog Rock group of all time!!!!! Oh they weren't put up........but in my mind they are/were the best. |
Maybe because for the vast majority of Prog listeners they are the best bands.
I don't like King Crimson except for the debut, but would be absurd from me not to admit they are part of the elite.
BarryGlibb wrote:
Let's have a poll to work out who was the first Celtic Prog Rock band.
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The Strawbs and by far, they started in 1964.
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You went to all that trouble to tell me something that I learnt at University in the subject Tull 101? And The Strawbs are English folk prog, not celtic, like Horslips. Discuss.
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micky
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 16:32 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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BarryGlibb
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Joined: August 28 2010
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 16:41 |
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micky
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 16:47 |
you should have never started 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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dr prog
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Joined: September 25 2010
Location: Melbourne
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Points: 2447
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 18:52 |
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Genesis are considered the number 1 PROG group here. I wouldn't be showing off songs such as Harold the barrel or musical box to anyone though.
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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 20:11 |
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19535
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 20:51 |
BarryGlibb wrote:
You went to all that trouble to tell me something that I learnt at University in the subject Tull 101?
And The Strawbs are English folk prog, not celtic, like Horslips. Discuss.
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Then why do you talk about disrespect?
BTW: Strawbs are considered a Celtic Prog band by every Prog site.
Their roots are based in Celtic Folk
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Kati
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Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 21:02 |
I like Genesis, Jethro Toe and Camel toe too!  hugs 
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 21:04 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BarryGlibb wrote:
You went to all that trouble to tell me something that I learnt at University in the subject Tull 101?
And The Strawbs are English folk prog, not celtic, like Horslips. Discuss.
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Then why do you talk about disrespect?
BTW: Strawbs are considered a Celtic Prog band by every Prog site.
Their roots are based in Celtic Folk |
Ivan, never once heard The Strawbs referred to as a "Celtic" prog band -- English folk all the way. And there roots were in American Bluegrass. Check your sources.
Edited by The Dark Elf - January 07 2015 at 21:05
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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dr prog
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Joined: September 25 2010
Location: Melbourne
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Points: 2447
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 21:20 |
Best song on England is Epping forest. Lots a cool melodies. Firth is a bit over dramatic and depressing. It would sit well on dark side of the moon. Moonlit starts boring but livens up well. Cinema starts with cringe worthy lyrics but is a nice song. Gabriel's voice, lyrics and outfits got worse each album. He's a bit unbearable on the lamb. His 80s stuff sucks
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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 22:04 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Ivan, never once heard The Strawbs referred to as a "Celtic" prog band -- English folk all the way. And there roots were in American Bluegrass. Check your sources.
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Well, Jethro Tull was a Blues band until 1969 - 1970, never saw them as a folk or celtic band, rather than a Blues band that also played Folk (among other genres)
You can check the net, many agree with my opinion about Strawbs
micky wrote:
 popular does not equal best. Unless you want to admit that Camel was a great band. Greater than ELP which is bullsh*t and everyone outside of Camel fanboy knows it. Even many Camel fans I suspect know it... however there was no stipulation on how to vote. I didn't ask people to vote on most important... sure didn't ask to vote for favorites. I just told them to vote.. thus people voted as they wished. Some did vote for bands they love.. some were faced with bands they did not like.. and voted based upon the more objective criteria.
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Of course I agree with you, as a fact, GENESIS was the most unpopular big Prog band during the Symphonic golden era.
While YES, ELP, KING CRIMSON played in front of crowds, GENESIS had to shorten the Lamb tour because they couldn't sell tickets, and wasn't even filmed.
Their first three albums were extremely unpopular except in Italy and Belgium, their first remotely popular album was SEBTP because of "I Know What I Like" which reached N° 17°....Most Prog Genesis albums were Gold certified only after years (If I'm not wrong, only The Lamb had Gold certification in the 70's).
They got real attention (In comparison with the other big 5) after the prog formation split...They have aged well unlike other bands.
You know I can't care less about popularity or lack of it, I love Pink Floyd who have two of the best sold albums in history and Love Genesis who were really unpopular
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addictedtoprog
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Joined: July 16 2014
Location: india
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 22:33 |
Catcher10 wrote:
manofmystery wrote:
Why can't Genesis fan boys behave more like DT fan boys and bugger off?
Sick of this lackluster band dominating this genre. It's good prog buried under awful singing from a guy in a stupid flower costume. Nothing more, nothing less. Stop building it into something it's not.
To be fair Jethro Tull is one of my favorite bands of all time but there's absolutely no doubt they made much more interesting music.
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I am not any band fanboy, and could careless for this music......I only come here to see what pics you put in your signature. Next......
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Well said Catch. 
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Kati
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Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 22:40 |
I love both bands, to be honest. I am thankful both of them contributed in a big way to my taste in moozik. Now let's group hug |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 22:54 |
We all love both bands
As a fact have all Jethro albums and not remotely all Genesis (After Hackett left, I only bought ATTW3).
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Dellinger
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Posted: January 07 2015 at 22:55 |
richardh wrote:
Dellinger wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Dellinger wrote:
Oh well, the thing for me, is that none of those albums is really a 5 star masterpiece. All of them have at least one song that I really dislike. The closest album for me would be Selling England by the Pound, and even that one has Battle of Epping Forest. Also Tresspass is really close, but even though that one doesn't have any song that I really dislike, it doesn't have such highlights on it as the next albums would have. |
Well, it's a matter of opinions.
I don't believe an album has to be perfect to be a masterpiece. It may have 1 or 2 songs that I dislike, but I value many other things
1.- Balance 2.- Transcendence 3.- Lyrics 4.- Performance 5.- Factor X
For me, every Genesis album except SEBTP have a perfect balance. all are transcendental for Prog, all have brilliant lyrics, the performances are impeccable, but overall...The music creates emotions on me.
CTTE is a masterpíece, but doesn't move me in the way Fountain of Salmacis, In the Cage or Can Utilitty move me.
Relayer is a super album, technically impeccable (Moraz is a genius), but leaves me cold in the field of emotion.
Thick as a Brick has a BRILLIANT intro, the lyrics are amazing, but after 10 minutes they start to repeat themselves.
Genesis did well avoiding endless epics, because too much time on your hands lead to repetition, the only real epic (Suppers Ready) is more a collection of different songs united only by a concept and that was brilliant..I love Fountain of Salmacis, and it lasts exactly as much as it should last..The organ intro impresses me because they don't repeat it 10 times in the song.
That's where the greatness of Genesius rests, they did what they needed to do, not more, nobiody tries to be a star, they leave their egos behind and play for the band, to the point that people believed Hackett was just a good guitar player until he left the band and did what he wanted to do.
Genesis was a team, few bands managed this. |
Well yeah, I agree about the opinion that an album doesn't have to be perfect to be a masterpiece. Actually, there are many albums that have one, or perhaps two songs I don't really like so much, but that as a whole I consider masterpieces... but those songs need not to bother me too much at least, nor be too long (such as "Have a Cigar" on Wish you were Here, or "Pigs on the Wing" on Animals... perhaps even "On the Run"... and "Money" on Dark Side of the Moon... or the "solo" songs on Fragile). But unfortunatley those songs I don't like on Genesis are either too long and/or too annoying and end up breaking the flow of otherwise wonderful music. For me a perfect Genesis album would have been "The Knife", "Musical Box", "Supper's Ready", "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight", "Firth of Fifth", "Cinema Show", and perhaps "In the Cage" to throw in something from The Lamb. Also, I might include "One for the Vine", but since that one is after Gabriel left and has a bit of a different feel, I might just not include it along the other ones. |
The only long Genesis song that annoys me is Battle Of Epping Forest. It really does get very annoying very quickly. At least when ELP did Benny The Bouncer they kept it mercifully short (although they still cop way more flak for it).
That is a list of great Genesis songs yet an album with Stagnation , Fountain of Salmacis , Watcher of The Skies ,Can Utilty and The Coastliners plus the last quarter of Lamb could also work just as well for me. |
Yeah, I really hate Battle of Epping Forest a lot too... just the song that ruins Selling England for me. Also Benny the Bouncer, but from that album I also don't particularly like Atack of the Giant Hogweed, and Fountain of Salmacis I half like and half dislike. About Watcher of the Skies, I also half like it and half dislike it... but there's the live version by Hackett on Tokyo Tapes, with Wetton on vocals, which I really love... the singing and whole playing just sounds so much warmer and natural. Can Utility I do like, but also I like better the version on Genesis Revisited... and from Lamb, well there are some nice songs, but mostly I feel they lost their magic on this album. I might add also The Lamia, which doesn't completley convince me on the album, I also like much better on Genesis Revisited.
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Lima Regional Final: Genesis v. Jethro Toe
