Kansas in the top 100 |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32482 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 07:31 | |||
You mean, "wrong?"
I, too, remember when Point of Know Return was on the list. Incidentally, they have a documentary coming out this spring with all the original members featured on it, as well as commentary from other artists like Garth Brooks and Brian May. The trailer looked cool. |
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Xonty
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 23 2013 Location: Cornwall Status: Offline Points: 1759 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 07:35 | |||
Same here. Also, I don't see how it's lower than albums like Trespass in the Symphonic Prog section but higher in the overall. Is it a slightly different rating system to include all the genres?
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progpositivity
Prog Reviewer Joined: December 15 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 262 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 07:45 | |||
Kansas strikes me as the kind of intricate-minded rock band that could both win over enough AORiented fans to land an album in the top 100 prog, but also to get tagged as "not prog" by enough members to end up with a lot of members voting that album as not belonging in the top 100. Even many of their proggiest albums were a combo of prog and other less complex rock forms.
I do recommend the Proto-Kaw albums btw.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32482 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 07:46 | |||
It has to do with the number of albums involved. Obviously, there are more albums in the entire database than there are in one sub-genre. The number of entries affects the "query weighted rating" (different from the regular rating) of the album, which then affects its place on the chart. Chart rankings are calculated by a weighted average. That's why it's easier for a Progressive Electronic album to break the top 20 of that sub-genre than it is for a Symphonic album to do so, but both of these albums would have to compete against ALL the albums on the site for the homepage list. Leftoverture has a QWR of 4.1816 when looking at all albums, while Trespass has 4.1535 (one place below Ashes Are Burning even). However, when focusing only on symphonic albums, Trespass has a 4.1262 while Leftoverture has 4.1198 (just one place above Ashes Are Burning). |
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46828 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 08:08 | |||
this forum really does have FAR too many Genesis fans, definitely too many Camel fans, not enough trolls, and DEFINITELY not enough tits. that said.. he is right... Many here do have sh*t for tastes. That Hackett album wipes the floor with anything Genesis did, and doesn't that list have every single Genesis album before you hit one ELP album. Makes one sad to be associated with this forum. I remember mentioning this site at Nearfest once.. and being laughed at. and that was BEFORE Camel beat ELP twice in popularity polls here |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5100 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 08:25 | |||
Indeed the Top 100 merges the favourites of so many different people that it can't be representative of the favourite albums of anybody in particular. It's only normal that it includes many albums which I do not like and omits many of my favourites.
Personally Leftoverture and Two For The Show (if live albums counted) are certainly in my Top 100.
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46828 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 08:38 | |||
the top 100 list really is sort of pointless. It definitely is a reflection more of popularity more than anything else. The more interesting lists are the ones that try to interject some objectivity into them. It really serves more as conversation piece than anything else. Entertainment more than education. Any list that has a album released within the last year in the top 40 albums... really isn't worth much of anything OTHER than pure entertainment for the occasional person like the forum tit earlier than got worked up about it. Or even more mature questioning like Bob had here. Anyone has half a brain (raising stick) and knows anything (starts downswing) about prog rock knows (makes contact with dead horse) that ELP created some of the most important, and enduring albums in prog rock. You'd never know it based on the list. Of course Kansas doesn't come close to that example, but they do share the common ground that those that love them.. LOVE THEM.. and those that dislike them.. LOATHE them. Sort of hard an impression on a popularity list with that kind of polar divide. |
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crrolf
Forum Newbie Joined: April 22 2012 Location: MD Status: Offline Points: 1 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 09:00 | |||
Personally, I'm 1,400 albums deep into prog, and I'd like to think Leftoverture is in the Top 100 on my list, and would be the only Kansas album on my Top 100. That being said, I believe the PA rating system determines if its in or not. When I scored each song individually, Leftoverture was highest. Point of Know Return, unfortunately received too much commercial time and hasn't held the test of time. The best thing about prog is that everyone's interests are different, therefore any two of us would not have the same Top 100. Also, our tastes change over time, especially those following all of the new prog releases.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5100 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 11:06 | |||
Yeah, it has to be taken for what it is, nothing more than that. And what it definitely IS NOT is a list of 'the 100 most important albums in Prog's history', or 'the essential Top 100 albums in Prog', or anything of the sort. Fully agree about ELP, in any list of the sort I just mentioned they would have several albums in very high position.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 11:17 | |||
For God's sake, they were making Prog along with the pioneers of the genre, they added that distinctive country touch that makes the Symphonic and Hard Rock blend richer.
People don't have a problem with Supertramp (Who have some very proggy stuff), but always are harsh on a 100% Prog band as Kansas Whoever thinks this is not Prog Should see an ear doctor Kansas is in my top 5 Prog bands
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 08 2015 at 11:20 |
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20491 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 11:38 | |||
After going through the top 100 albums listed here there are a handful of albums/bands that I would rate lower than Kansas' Left Overture but that always comes down to personal preference and subjectivity.
As far as Kansas albums , the track itself 'Song For America' is my personal favorite, though all the early albums are solid and about equal in overall quality of music for me.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 12736 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 11:38 | |||
Kansas is cursed with several stigmas: 1) the anti-American bias that permeates this forum (yes, it's there, so don't even argue about it), 2) they actually sold albums (King Crimson never sold albums, therefore they must be great prog), 3) they were liked by non-prog listeners (a reason why Pink Floyd can't possibly be prog), and 4) they were unfortunately lumped in with the corporate rock quagmire of the late 70s (StyxBostonForeignerREOSpeedwagonJourney, et al) that eventually destroyed rock as we knew it.
But they are prog, stigmatically-speaking.
Edited by The Dark Elf - February 08 2015 at 16:24 |
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zwordser
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 04 2008 Location: Southwest US Status: Offline Points: 1361 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 12:15 | |||
Do you remember how long Leftoverture and Point of Know Return stayed in the top 100? Either one or both may have been in when I joined (in late 2008) and I just don't remember. You may be right that American bands are somewhat 'discounted' by a good portion of the membership here--I'm not sure. |
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46828 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 12:32 | |||
oh hell yeah. Well said. Agree with you 100% on all those points. Again I think they suffer PA's ELPitis... some write them off completely; either because of being American, commercially successful and tossed in with the AOR/Stadium rock groups.. and even some who don't summarily write them off.. simply don't care much for what they actually were doing to rate them highly. IMO they are good group.. but far from a great one. Like ELP they'll struggle to get a album or two in the top 100. Even ELP only has one and they did far more important and adventurous stuff. It doesn't take much to turn people off it seems... you even have people hating on Yes because of.. Jon Anderson.. hello.. WHO listens to Yes for Anderson. You do for Squire, Howe, and whichever all-world caliber keyboardist they have in teh band at that moment. For me.. oh yeah prog.. but like Richard noted earlier.. I never saw any of their albums worthy of anything more than 3 or 4 stars. Good group... not a great one. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 12:56 | |||
Hey I listen YES for Howe, Squire and Howe, but Anderson ruins the experience. Nevertheless I seen them, several times on stage and will go every time I have a chance. |
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46828 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 13:26 | |||
yeah... I can dig that. If a vocalist turns you wrong.. then the music itself often can't save the listening experience. see Camel.. speaking of... there was a poll I saw the other day that had a Captain Beefheart song in it. I didn't know that song... I'm only vaguely familiar with him through Zappa .. and I listened to it.. well did for about a minute before I shut off the damn clip. Urgggg.. art is great man... but I'm into pleasure.. not pain. |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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sublime220
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 21 2015 Location: Willow Farm Status: Offline Points: 1563 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 13:40 | |||
I feel that Leftoverture should be higher and have Point of Know Return towards the bottom. Both amazing albums.
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: May 02 2008 Location: Going Bananas Status: Offline Points: 24011 |
Posted: February 09 2015 at 04:52 | |||
I join the ranks of those who should get out of the room according to Adolf Hitler and vote for option #2. Leftoverture fits quite well in the top 100 and one more album (Point of Know Return) somewhere below would also be fine. Kansas was one of the few US-based prog bands from the classic era.
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Libor10
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 19 2005 Location: Czech republic Status: Offline Points: 692 |
Posted: February 09 2015 at 09:59 | |||
The fact is, any rank couldn't be 100% fair. The same counts for this top 100 prog bands rank. Everyone has it's own tastes and this is average result from these many votes (we could argue about mathematical method of counting these ranks but that's all we can...).
IMO Kansas is fine (although I've always counted them more to proto-prog), but for me it isn't top 100 record band... For example Queen is mainly rock group (in 70's to be precise) and it isn't strange they are not too popular here on progboard. On the other side I'll always count their Queen II album (with definitely prog roots) higher than any other Kansas record. And this one isn't even in 250 rank albums. So what? The world turns around and I'll listen to this one despite of any poll. Because all these polls and ranks are subjective and couldn't be too overestimated. On the other side - there are a lot of records in the rank 100 I'm definitely satisfied with. For some new prog listener it could be very good "manual" to step inside the progressive rock waters. And maybe this could be very good reason to have this rank here and let it live with it's own life... :-) Oh well - I voted #5 here. |
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richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 26227 |
Posted: February 09 2015 at 13:28 | |||
Ratings are based more on consistency than inspiration and originality imo. BSS is poison to some because it has a love ballad and some awfull Chas n Dave knock off, so it gets '4 stars' despite the other 36 minutes of sheer brilliance.
That said I don't have any great issue with the top ten albums on the list. Its just the when you get past that it starts to get less meaningful to me. Answer - just publish a top ten on the front of the site. Shimples.
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