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^Yeah, I really think an album being a classic is all depending on different tastes. While we may see The Road of Bones as a modern classic, others may not.
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Posted: May 05 2015 at 17:03
An interesting thread........someone mentioned many posts back about 'standing the test of time' for an album to be considered a 'classic'. I tend to agree with this but how long is that time frame?
20 years....30 years...or even 40 years..?
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
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Posted: May 05 2015 at 21:35
dr wu23 wrote:
An interesting thread........someone mentioned many posts back about 'standing the test of time' for an album to be considered a 'classic'. I tend to agree with this but how long is that time frame?
20 years....30 years...or even 40 years..?
It seems the answer may be indefinitely. In blues music, Robert Johnson is still revered and he died in 1938. In jazz, Louis Armstrong's career started in the 1920s and his songs are still played. Then there are the classical composers like Bach and Vivaldi who died over 250 years ago. Hey hey, my my -- rock and roll can never die.
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Posted: May 05 2015 at 23:05
The Dark Elf wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
An interesting thread........someone mentioned many posts back about 'standing the test of time' for an album to be considered a 'classic'. I tend to agree with this but how long is that time frame?
20 years....30 years...or even 40 years..?
It seems the answer may be indefinitely. In blues music, Robert Johnson is still revered and he died in 1938. In jazz, Louis Armstrong's career started in the 1920s and his songs are still played. Then there are the classical composers like Bach and Vivaldi who died over 250 years ago. Hey hey, my my -- rock and roll can never die.
I suspect that Doug meant how long do we have to wait before we can say an album has stood the test of time...
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Posted: May 05 2015 at 23:34
It was pretty obvious to me in the late 70s/early 80s that Old Genesis, Dark Side of the Moon, Aqualung...etc. would stand the test of time. I don't think there's anything that survived as a classic that surprises me. I don't know if that comports with other people's experience, but I suspect that our current conjectures are probably not so far off the mark. Primarily people seem to be differing mainly on how generous they are with the term "classic".
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Posted: May 06 2015 at 00:04
dr wu23 wrote:
An interesting thread........someone mentioned many posts back about 'standing the test of time' for an album to be considered a 'classic'. I tend to agree with this but how long is that time frame?
20 years....30 years...or even 40 years..?
All of those time frames you mentioned, but some albums already get the classic status in a relatively short time, for example IQ's Road of Bones, or even an album that is released as a debut by a reletively new band, e.g. iamthemorning ~
Actually, there are not strictly rules re the times frames.
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Posted: May 06 2015 at 03:39
ExittheLemming wrote:
erm...are you Welsh?
Er, no...I'm Essexian....
but anyway....
interesting discussion (artwork aside)
A few more thoughts: I agree that we each have our own idea of what is "classic". I've always struggled with CTTE, but if I'd heard it when it first came out, rather than just a few years ago, maybe I'd have fallen for it like so many others did, but I just don't get it......but then I don't get a lot of Yes' output....
Modern classics? To the very recent ones I already nominated as possibles (Sound Of Contact, EEFP), I would have to add Images And Words and The Human Equation, two of my favourite albums, but not universally loved I know! And, weirdly, both featuring James LaBrie, so go figure that one....
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Posted: May 06 2015 at 04:00
Smurph wrote:
A classic is an outstanding example of a particular style, something of lasting worth or with a timeless quality. The word can be anadjective (a classic car) or a noun (a classic of English literature). It denotes a particular quality in art, architecture, literature, design, technology, or other cultural artifacts.
So... basically...
Deloused in the Comatorium- Brought prog into a modern context and truly brought something new to the table. Used odd key mutations and modal mutations but attached an accessible hook-based context to it while also stretching a little into traditional prog territory. It has a particular quality and could be considered a cultural artifact, as it opened up AN ENTIRE GENERATION to prog rock due to the bands original success with At The Drive-In. In fact, the list of modern bands directly influenced by the Mars Volta are just as great as any other prog band. I have met countless modern musicians that claim this album changed their life and helped change the shape of prog rock for years afterwards. It also brought back the idea of bringing punk energy to prog rock.
Explain to me how that is not classic? Unless... you don't see it as an outstanding example of prog rock? And then... suddenly that would mean that maybe the idea of something being a classic is truly just opinion.
California- Focused in Mr Bungle's usually spastic songwriting into focused songs. Used the most advanced recording technologies available at the time to create an album that has a consistent flow yet stretches over more genres than most bands perform throughout their entire lifetime. Not only did it satirize some of those genres, but it presented them in a light that made them better than most more serious renditions of them. The production is as about as perfect as it could be. This album also helped establish Mr Bungle as the most formidable avant-garde metal-stylized act, and transformed music for many people. In fact, there are countless bands that rip off this sorta thing to this day. Not to mention Mike Patton's influence on the modern vocal performance world.
If you need me to list the bands that are directly influenced by this group, I can do that as well. It is quite long and I'm sure many of my avant-metal friends here would agree. How is that not a modern classic?
Unless of course, the idea of something being a classic has everything to do with opinion. Then, we are all just arguing our specific perspectives and no one older than 50 would be able to consider any modern albums "classic' because they've already made mental associations with what 'classic' is.
And then are we saying something isn't classic because everything prog that is post 1974 is all too derivative of the past to be considered classic? Are we trying to say that because something has a particular production quality that it is not considered timeless?
Sleepytime Gorilla Museum's In Glorius Times I could less consider it a classic because it's honestly just too f**king weird for 99.9% of people and I would consider that to be something that is personal for me.
This is quite difficult to explain because it's not something that you can apply a rule-set to. The 1972 Ford Mustang is a Classic, the 1978 model isn't yet both qualify as "classic cars" if you apply the simple criteria that classic cars are between 30 and 40 years old. Nor is this necessarily a comparative thing - if the 1972 Mustang didn't exist the 1978 model still wouldn't be a classic. In time perhaps the 2004 Mustang will be held in the same regard as the '72 models - it has the potential of being a classic (but it ain't one yet).
So I don't know whether any of these three albums will be regarded as classics in years to come. I think De-Loused has potential of being a classic, the other two I seriously doubt. This has nothing to do with my opinion of these albums or my age - yes I'm over 50, however I am familiar with all three of the artists you mention and own two of the albums - one I think is brilliant, the other is less remarkable than its predecessor (that our opinions differ on that particular score is somewhat irrelevant - you say In Glorious Times and I say I prefer Of Natural History does not lessen your regard for the former or imply the latter should be nominated for classic status).
While I said it isn't necessarily a comparative thing, once a standard has been set then comparisons are inevitable if an album is elected to join the echelon of Classic Prog albums. But since the OP is asking for "modern-classic" Prog albums then comparisons can be brushed aside because we are inferring a different era. Yet that (undefined) era still has a time-dependency attached to it to have "stood the test of time". In literature the novels of Austen's Pride and Prejudice and Dickens Oliver Twist are regarded as classics whereas Kerouac's On The Road is a "modern classic" and Rowling's Harry Potter is not, (in years to come HP may be regarded as a classic.. or not).
The next classification is "Instant Classic" - over the years lots of albums have been regarded as instant classics on their initial release but few of them stand the test of time. The initial furore of expectation and adoration dissipates with time or is surpassed by the next great thing, (Dream Theater once suffered greatly from this - now-a-days less so as no one seems to rate any of their later releases as highly as their earlier work).
Dark Side of the Moon was recognised as a classic early in its life and has held on to that status, Close To The Edge took a while and Thick as a Brick was probably more retrospective. All of these albums have garnered new fans as time marched on (and a few who would dismiss them).
The final classification is "Cult Classic" - This is more selective and covers less well known albums and artists - these are album that are recognised as outstanding in a particular narrowly defined field and are often those that have slowly built-up a relatively substantial following. Sleepytime Gorilla Museum and Mr Bungle would fit into this category if those albums were regarded as such by a cross-section of the [genre] fans (and not just one person's opinion).
Speaking of Patton: Angel Dust is a classic album ... no one needs to explain why it is a classic, if you have to explain it then it probably isn't a classic.
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Posted: May 06 2015 at 04:45
By the way, at the time when Going For The One was recorded and packed in that anti-Roger Dean album cover, CloseTo The Edge already was 'a classic symphonic rock album'. Not much time it really needed in many cases.
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Posted: May 06 2015 at 04:55
Svetonio wrote:
By the way, at the time when Going For The One was recorded and packed in that anti-Roger Dean album cover, CloseTo The Edge already was 'a classic symphonic rock album'. Not much time it really needed in many cases.
Back then five years was quite a long time even when measured in Prog-years. CttE gets a mere three words in your favourite Prog picture book (and no cover picture).
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Posted: May 06 2015 at 06:18
"Classic" = representative, exemplary, the best of its kind, masterpiece ... and timeless.
Every musical genre/subgenre can have classic examples. Prog is something that is still alive after 40+ years. As long as there is a permanent base of listeners new (post 70's) classics can be established. Decline in publicity, impact and fame doesn't change that.
"Modern classics" is a contradiction in terms. I think recent albums can't be classics because we need the test of time. Road of Bones
for example can only be a potential classic. It's hard to determine a
strict boundary of time. The longer the time more stronger the
certainty. I think 10 years at least must pass to have some certainty
about classic status.
Therefore the most recent classics can only be from 90's. Let's look at the top prog albums list what is ranked high: ANGLAGARD - Hybrys OPETH - Still Life DREAM THEATER - Images And Words, Metropolis Part 2
If
we extend the list for a few years maybe also: POS - The Perfect
Element, Death - Symbolic, Riverside - SLS, PT - In Absentia, Opeth - BP
and GR, Tool - Lateralus.
Are classics instantly recognized? For instance, the Beatles album Revolver, which never received the hype Sgt Peppers got but now is recognized by some to be the better album. I am not saying Revolver is a classic this is just an example for discussion purposes.
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Posted: May 06 2015 at 09:35
I am not sure if classics are instantly recognised but in my humble opinion, what we might regard as 'classic era prog' has been exhausted from around 1976 onwards. Thus, the classics such as Close to the Edge, Tarkus etc. will remain as such. It also goes back to how we define 'progressive': there will be no new classics from bands that follow the blueprint laid down in the early 70s but from innovators. The only band to really do this (produce 'classics') twice was King Crimson who experimented with minimalism when Fripp reformed them in the early 80s and shed the trappings of early prog instrumentation and structure.
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Posted: May 06 2015 at 09:36
timothy leary wrote:
Are classics instantly recognized? For instance, the Beatles album Revolver, which never received the hype Sgt Peppers got but now is recognized by some to be the better album. I am not saying Revolver is a classic this is just an example for discussion purposes.
Revolver did indeed have far less hype, but it was critically praised at the time, with contemporary reviewers using the words "exceptional excellence", "a revolutionary record", "full of musical ingenuity", "a brilliant album", "the pinnacle of pop music" and "the Beatles have definitely broken the bounds of what we used to call pop".
Strange as it may seem, my mother bought me the album for Christmas that year because I so loved The Beatles cartoon. Looking back, she may have considered it an error on her part.
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Posted: May 06 2015 at 10:56
Dean wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
An interesting thread........someone mentioned many posts back about 'standing the test of time' for an album to be considered a 'classic'. I tend to agree with this but how long is that time frame?
20 years....30 years...or even 40 years..?
It seems the answer may be indefinitely. In blues music, Robert Johnson is still revered and he died in 1938. In jazz, Louis Armstrong's career started in the 1920s and his songs are still played. Then there are the classical composers like Bach and Vivaldi who died over 250 years ago. Hey hey, my my -- rock and roll can never die.
I suspect that Doug meant how long do we have to wait before we can say an album has stood the test of time...
Close To The Fridge is 43 years old
Script for a Jester's Tear is 32 years old
Images & Wurds ~ 23 years old
OK Computer ~ 18 years
De-loused in Comatorium ~ 12 years
The Road Of Bones ~1 year
That was indeed what I meant.
So , can we even get into calling Ok Computer, De-loused and Road of Bones classics at this stage...?
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Posted: May 06 2015 at 11:31
An example of an insant classic album in progressive fusion genre; that's a debut album titled Random Abstarct released at 20 April 2015 on MoonJune Records, by Barcelona's duo called Xadu, i.e. Xavi Reja (already in Prog Archives due to my suggestion) on drums and Dušan Jevtović on guitar
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