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Joined: August 14 2015
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Topic: Is RPI sung in English - really RPI? Posted: August 18 2015 at 05:26
Todd wrote:
symphonicman wrote:
Todd wrote:
symphonicman wrote:
I wonder if a band that is not from Italy, but from a country that speaks Italian like Switzerland makes an album with Italian lyrics. Is that Rock Progressivo Italiano?
Rumple Stiltze Comune is the closest case that I know of. We would have accepted them as RPI, but the influence was more clearly English. http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=6128
So if Rumple Stiltzken Comune would have had Italian lyrics, would they have been more difficult to place?
No, if their music had more in common stylistically with Italian prog as opposed to English prog, they would have been more difficult to place, regardless of language. If the language were Italian also, they would have been RPI, in my book. For me, the music comes first. The language is definitely important--and I vastly prefer prog in its native language--but the music comes first.
Thank you for a very good explanation. It's easy to think that the difference between Rock Progressivo Italiano and other Prog is just the language, even though it isn't. If I have understood everything correctly?
Master James of St. George. Of the fields and the sky. He used to build castles of stone, steel, and blood. But lines get broken down.
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Posted: August 18 2015 at 00:43
symphonicman wrote:
Todd wrote:
symphonicman wrote:
I wonder if a band that is not from Italy, but from a country that speaks Italian like Switzerland makes an album with Italian lyrics. Is that Rock Progressivo Italiano?
Rumple Stiltze Comune is the closest case that I know of. We would have accepted them as RPI, but the influence was more clearly English. http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=6128
So if Rumple Stiltzken Comune would have had Italian lyrics, they would have been more difficult to place?
No, if their music had more in common stylistically with Italian prog as opposed to English prog, they would have been more difficult to place, regardless of language. If the language were Italian also, they would have been RPI, in my book. For me, the music comes first. The language is definitely important--and I vastly prefer prog in its native language--but the music comes first.
Joined: August 14 2015
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Posted: August 17 2015 at 23:29
Todd wrote:
symphonicman wrote:
I wonder if a band that is not from Italy, but from a country that speaks Italian like Switzerland makes an album with Italian lyrics. Is that Rock Progressivo Italiano?
Rumple Stiltze Comune is the closest case that I know of. We would have accepted them as RPI, but the influence was more clearly English. http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=6128
So if Rumple Stiltzken Comune would have had Italian lyrics, would they have been more difficult to place?
Edited by symphonicman - August 18 2015 at 05:12
Master James of St. George. Of the fields and the sky. He used to build castles of stone, steel, and blood. But lines get broken down.
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Posted: August 17 2015 at 17:52
TGM: Orb wrote:
micky wrote:
everyone did a great job putting that definition together. It was a real team effort.
However the thing to recognize.. and likely the main selling point to M@X who had to authorize this...
what is the PRIMARY mission of this site.. other than cataloging.. it is to faciliate discovery of all these wonderful bands and albums we have added. Regardless of whether RPI is or is not 'valid' in people's opinions.. what it did was place groups in a logical section where people who want to discover the vast wealth of the Italian prog scene can find these groups.
As I told M@X.. the person who gets into Italian prog via PFM doesn't give two sh*ts about whether BANCO is symphonic.. Osanna Heavy Prog.. Area is Avant Fusion.. they naturally flow together...
it is like the way groups are classifed in the tradtional sub-genres.. are Yes symphonic.. are Genesis syphonic. .who knows. Those are very often personal opinions on the music.. what they are though.. are naturally grouped togehter.. even though they sound vastly different. They are natural being grouped together.
Exactly that.
...unless you actually read what Micky wrote, then exactly not that.
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Posted: August 17 2015 at 06:46
micky wrote:
everyone did a great job putting that definition together. It was a real team effort.
However the thing to recognize.. and likely the main selling point to M@X who had to authorize this...
what is the PRIMARY mission of this site.. other than cataloging.. it is to faciliate discovery of all these wonderful bands and albums we have added. Regardless of whether RPI is or is not 'valid' in people's opinions.. what it did was place groups in a logical section where people who want to discover the vast wealth of the Italian prog scene can find these groups.
As I told M@X.. the person who gets into Italian prog via PFM doesn't give two sh*ts about whether BANCO is symphonic.. Osanna Heavy Prog.. Area is Avant Fusion.. they naturally flow together...
it is like the way groups are classifed in the tradtional sub-genres.. are Yes symphonic.. are Genesis syphonic. .who knows. Those are very often personal opinions on the music.. what they are though.. are naturally grouped togehter.. even though they sound vastly different. They are natural being grouped together.
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Posted: August 16 2015 at 20:31
everyone did a great job putting that definition together. It was a real team effort.
However the thing to recognize.. and likely the main selling point to M@X who had to authorize this...
what is the PRIMARY mission of this site.. other than cataloging.. it is to faciliate discovery of all these wonderful bands and albums we have added. Regardless of whether RPI is or is not 'valid' in people's opinions.. what it did was place groups in a logical section where people who want to discover the vast wealth of the Italian prog scene can find these groups.
As I told M@X.. the person who gets into Italian prog via PFM doesn't give two sh*ts about whether BANCO is symphonic.. Osanna Heavy Prog.. Area is Avant Fusion.. they naturally flow together...
it is like the way groups are classifed in the tradtional sub-genres.. are Yes symphonic.. are Genesis syphonic. .who knows. Those are very often personal opinions on the music.. what they are though.. are naturally grouped togehter.. even though they sound vastly different. They are natural being grouped together.
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Posted: August 16 2015 at 19:01
dr wu23 wrote:
I did reread the actual RPI page (been quite a while since I first read it..) and the multi paragraph explanation of the RPI origins and the reasons for why a sub genre was created. I understand better now why some believe it deserves it's own niche and sub genre. I can't say I agree fully with all of the arguments, but I do understand why it has been accepted as a prog area all it's own.
Very much my opinion. It's a musical scene, more analogous to Canterbury or Kraut Rock or RIO than, say, Symphonic. There's a lot of nonsense spoken on the musical reasons the genre should be set apart from other albums that kind of falls apart if you start applying it systematically. Similarly with the vox - theatrical vocals can be hyped up but then there were plenty of British bands who'd been doing that and proved very influential in Italy and who got more theatrical after Italian tours... much the same with pastoral harmonised vocals.
I've not yet really found any Italian prog rock in English that compares favourably to the English language German prog, in addition to even admirable translation attempts being turned off course by very musically different languages or often horrendously misplaced emphasis.
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Posted: August 16 2015 at 17:31
dr wu23 wrote:
As you can see I have been here about 5 years with a number of posts and been listening to prog from the beginning of what was considered prog.......and I never said the 'genre' wasn't 'legit' (your word btw..)...whatever that means, and did say 'have at it'. My question is why is it necessary when there aren't any for the other countries....Krautrock being the exception to the rule apparently.
I have , of course, read the RPI 'explanation' but it seems to be more a rationalization that's about those who like the genre for their own reasons than why it's necessary since RPI is primarily symphonic prog .
First of all, thanks for re-reading the definition and finding something to appreciate. Before I bow out of the discussion for good, I'd just like to comment on the bolded part of your quote. That kind of reasoning - i.e. that people want to push their own agenda, regardless of evidence - was behind some of the nastiest confrontations in the Collab Zone, with personal insults flung left, right and centre. Personally, though I am Italian born and bred, I cannot even say I am a fan of RPI as many people are here. However, without the development of a vibrant prog scene in the early Seventies (when I was in my pre-teen years), I would probably not have got into prog as I did.
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Posted: August 16 2015 at 17:13
Dean wrote:
Pah... Johnny-come-latelies.
My first introduction to Italian Progressive Rock was back in 1973/74, the lyrics were sung in English and I 'king loved them all (Felona and Sorona, Photos of Ghosts and The World Became The World). I couldn't give a flying fig whether they were heavily accented or sung in Klingon - the music was outstanding and that is all that mattered to me. Later, hearing the original versions of these albums only made the experience better, I still have great affection for those "UK" versions.
Nor do I care a great deal what you care to call it now, Rock Progressivo Italiano or Italian Symphonic Rock or just Progressive Rock - the soubriquet does not change the music.
There are many more things you can say more eloquently than I - this is one of them
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Posted: August 16 2015 at 17:07
I did reread the actual RPI page (been quite a while since I first read it..) and the multi paragraph explanation of the RPI origins and the reasons for why a sub genre was created. I understand better now why some believe it deserves it's own niche and sub genre. I can't say I agree fully with all of the arguments, but I do understand why it has been accepted as a prog area all it's own.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
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Posted: August 16 2015 at 16:59
Raff wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
I'm certainly no expert on RPI (and it's not one of my favorite styles...which is basically symph or eclectic anyway..) but as several have mentioned or alluded to here , I'm not sure why there even needs to be a genre for that. There is no French, Swedish, etc category for other foreign 'sounding' prog bands.
I'm not even sure why we have a 'Krautrock' sub genre....by that reasoning there should be a 'Britrock' sub genre for quintessentially British sounding prog....etc.
Why aren't the basic genres enough...symph, eclectic, proto, prog related, fusion...etc?
I have heard all the reasons before but if anyone wants to try and convince me of the rationale for these categories ....have at it.
If you believe the subgenre is not legit, and nothing anyone will say will change your mind, why do you even bother to ask? We did spend a lot of time and effort in writing down a very comprehensive definition of RPI - drawing down on my first-hand experience as someone who was there (in Italy, I mean) at the time the subgenre developed. I now realize that we probably shouldn't have bothered.
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Posted: August 16 2015 at 16:57
Raff wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
I'm certainly no expert on RPI (and it's not one of my favorite styles...which is basically symph or eclectic anyway..) but as several have mentioned or alluded to here , I'm not sure why there even needs to be a genre for that. There is no French, Swedish, etc category for other foreign 'sounding' prog bands.
I'm not even sure why we have a 'Krautrock' sub genre....by that reasoning there should be a 'Britrock' sub genre for quintessentially British sounding prog....etc.
Why aren't the basic genres enough...symph, eclectic, proto, prog related, fusion...etc?
I have heard all the reasons before but if anyone wants to try and convince me of the rationale for these categories ....have at it.
If you believe the subgenre is not legit, and nothing anyone will say will change your mind, why do you even bother to ask? We did spend a lot of time and effort in writing down a very comprehensive definition of RPI - drawing down on my first-hand experience as someone who was there (in Italy, I mean) at the time the subgenre developed. I now realize that we probably shouldn't have bothered.
As you can see I have been here about 5 years with a number of posts and been listening to prog from the beginning of what was considered prog.......and I never said the 'genre' wasn't 'legit' (your word btw..)...whatever that means, and did say 'have at it'. My question is why is it necessary when there aren't any for the other countries....Krautrock being the exception to the rule apparently.
I have , of course, read the RPI 'explanation' but it seems to be more a rationalization that's about those who like the genre for their own reasons than why it's necessary since RPI is primarily symphonic prog .
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
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Posted: August 16 2015 at 16:30
dr wu23 wrote:
I'm certainly no expert on RPI (and it's not one of my favorite styles...which is basically symph or eclectic anyway..) but as several have mentioned or alluded to here , I'm not sure why there even needs to be a genre for that. There is no French, Swedish, etc category for other foreign 'sounding' prog bands.
I'm not even sure why we have a 'Krautrock' sub genre....by that reasoning there should be a 'Britrock' sub genre for quintessentially British sounding prog....etc.
Why aren't the basic genres enough...symph, eclectic, proto, prog related, fusion...etc?
I have heard all the reasons before but if anyone wants to try and convince me of the rationale for these categories ....have at it.
If you believe the subgenre is not legit, and nothing anyone will say will change your mind, why do you even bother to ask? We did spend a lot of time and effort in writing down a very comprehensive definition of RPI - drawing down on my first-hand experience as someone who was there (in Italy, I mean) at the time the subgenre developed. I now realize that we probably shouldn't have bothered.
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Points: 20468
Posted: August 16 2015 at 16:23
I'm certainly no expert on RPI (and it's not one of my favorite styles...which is basically symph or eclectic anyway..) but as several have mentioned or alluded to here , I'm not sure why there even needs to be a genre for that. There is no French, Swedish, etc category for other foreign 'sounding' prog bands.
I'm not even sure why we have a 'Krautrock' sub genre....by that reasoning there should be a 'Britrock' sub genre for quintessentially British sounding prog....etc.
Why aren't the basic genres enough...symph, eclectic, proto, prog related, fusion...etc?
I have heard all the reasons before but if anyone wants to try and convince me of the rationale for these categories ....have at it.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Joined: January 24 2012
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Posted: August 16 2015 at 09:52
Saperlipopette! wrote:
^Of course I know that. Still far from the same.
I agree there's a difference between RPI and Krautrock/Zeuhl regarding the nationality of the artists in the genre, and that RPI is closely, although not entirely, connected with the usage of the Italian language, I just don't understand how you can use nationality in genre description as an argument when German is mentioned in the Krautrock genre description, and it's in the the name of the genre. Nit-picking, I know, but still...
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Is RPI sung in English - really RPI?
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Todd wrote:
There are many more things you can say more eloquently than I - this is one of them 
